WP - New ability in Wrath, is it viable?

[Snoxx]

I meant salvation and locking to 2h is easy, preventing doks 1h + charm counting as DW needs coding

Maybe this code already exists. I remember many months ago AoE-Detaunt was prevented from working with 1h+book, it only worked with 2handed hammer. This was done to prevent backline-healers from having access to 100%-uptime AoE-Detaunt.

Was this a WP only change, or did it also affect DoKs?

[catholicism198]

One minute you are saying its atrash and should be a 5 point ability, the next *Edit* Salvation are going full ham for 15 points in wrath

No, I said all they needed was a basic gap closer at 5 points- and tying it to a 2h/dual wield doesn't sound like such a bad idea- similar to how the AE detaunt functioned before.
...from the sound of it- snoxx was probably one of the 2-3 that I've come across...and he was just testing it.

It's not as simple as just modifying the numbers on existing abilities. You have to bear in mind potential power imbalances, power creeps, and so on. While increasing Bludgeon's damage by 10% probably wouldn't spell the end of the world, you need to think these things through - particularly when it is a hybrid class, lest they start to render pure DPS classes useless. This is why I believe that any increase to Wrath's damage should come at a significant cost to their survivability/lifetap potential.

This also assumes that Wrath WP should actually be able to fill in as a DPS, which is arguably a subjective point of view (some may consider Wrath a harder-hitting damage dealer, but whose focus should still be on healing - as per their archetype).

+ other stuff

They'd have to do something like make it so that every point spent (past 7~) in Wrath/Torture past would subtract X% percent of the effectiveness of life-tap abilities, similar to how each point grants a 1.5-3% bonus to the abilities in that mastery.
....why 7? So that the 1-2 Grace/Sacrifice WP/DoKs could still get the AE detaunt if they wanted to.

[Mystry]

Logical solution if Salvation WPs are using it (probably not intended) is to make it have a 2h requirement, if this is possible.

Mystery: even in full Wrath DPS gear, I can put out decent melee heals via spammable and Divine Assault. Contrary to what 'some other' WP said earlier on, Guilty Soul also provides pretty good supplementary heals on your defensive target - particularly if you get multiple GSs rotating simultaneously. These are the 'heals' (mainly spammable and DA) I refer to when I say they, too, should be nerfed if we are opting to improve Wrath DPS (note: nerfed only for Wrath/DPS WPs - not Grace!).

I am a huge advocate of variety; it is one of the things I loved about WoW. I, too, believe a Wrath WP should be able to fill in as a DPS, but its lifetaps in current iteration (even if spec'd full Wrath/DF and Fanaticism) would still be overperforming if damage was increased significantly to enable Wrath WP to do just this.

And I'd be fine with nerfing healing ability as Wrath. As long as it makes Wrath VIABLE as melee DPS.
Also Grace can't get Guilty Soul without either sacrificing Sigmar's Grace, which everyone and their mother wants because wounds buffs are great, or being 50+ RR.

[Unstoppable1776]

[Unstoppable1776]

As you can see in exhibit A 3 dps WP our dmg a dps dok. Please buff dok dmg

[nailinthehead]

I've seen Salvation WPs using it before to great effect. The silence immunity has to be stripped away.

What kind of great effect you are talking about? Such as healer speccing 16 points into dps tree to get an escape tool on 5 min CD? It only shows how desperate some WPs are just to increase their survivability. I say - leave it be, let some variety into the class. If someone wants to give up healing buff comming from salv tree points, the group cleanse and lower prayer's armor value to have a chance to run away once in 5 minutes - why not? Salv WP has no insta-cast heals, no other root/snare breakers so basically nothing to let him survive when in melee situation. What's a big deal then?

It doesn't stop to amaze me how some people are hysterical about WP getting any buff. The worst class in RoR got some new tool (it's hard to even call it a buff) which comes with a great cost of tree points and tactic slot and the bitching started immediately.

Mystery: even in full Wrath DPS gear, I can put out decent melee heals via spammable and Divine Assault. Contrary to what 'some other' WP said earlier on, Guilty Soul also provides pretty good supplementary heals on your defensive target - particularly if you get multiple GSs rotating simultaneously. These are the 'heals' (mainly spammable and DA) I refer to when I say they, too, should be nerfed if we are opting to improve Wrath DPS (note: nerfed only for Wrath/DPS WPs - not Grace!).

Those heals are there to let you sustain the damage. That's the only line of defense WP has. Also remember, that GS requires you to give up a tactic slot, so you lose either HD or IR). Pure DPS classes have variety of tools which let them survive in combat - disarms, kd's, roots, armor ignore, debuffs and burst potential. WP can deal quite a damage but it's spread in time and with it's low armor/toughness/ini values and no other support tools other than self-heal that dmg sustainment is already extremely hard to achieve. All tools WP has can be easily countered and morales are quite useless (do anyone use any other morale than Focused Mind?). Before any further nerfs buff dps WP, let it be worth taking for groups and lets see what happens. I bet no buff than can be introduced will bring the WP even close to Mara/WL effectiveness and versatility.

[ashton007]

You're preaching to the choir. My main has been DPS WP on Order for a while, and I know their damage is lacking, but nonetheless I am appreciative a bone has been given. If you want higher numbers, it must come at a cost: we would need to think of a way of making Wrath DPS more viable, while drastically reducing their survivability so it is akin to other MDPS.

For starters, we could improve wrath WPs to be as viable as torture DoKs. This doesn't have to come at a cost. It's just balancing.

I second this. DoK outperforms melee dps WP. No one can complain if you're just balancing the 2.

[peterthepan3]

It outperforms the DPS WP due to dual wield/double damage proc/devour essence/best heal debuff in game. However, it's also due to the discrepancies that exist between 2h and dual wield that don't just pertain to DOK/WP (how many 2h SL/CH do you see compared to dual-wielding variants!).

[Toldavf]

dps wp is in a better place than live but its still not dps dok.

[Fallenkezef]

It outperforms the DPS WP due to dual wield/double damage proc/devour essence/best heal debuff in game. However, it's also due to the discrepancies that exist between 2h and dual wield that don't just pertain to DOK/WP (how many 2h SL/CH do you see compared to dual-wielding variants!).

Replace 2h 10% block strikethrough with 10% parry strikethrough?

Dualwield gives parry, 2h helps break parry, symmetry to it then.