[Review] Guard at Level 5

[darude83]

I'm in favor of this proposal. There are no real downsides, let the tanks have guard at lvl 5.

Elaborate.

Playing T1 very recently, forming small roaming parties it was sometimes tough to get a tank with guard ability. It felt unfair not to be able to invite players below lvl 10, because they would bring nothing substantial to the grp. The comparisons with the rezz ability are false imo, the correct comparison would be healing abilities, which healers get at lvl 1.

The balancing arguments are flawed for several reasons, the most obvious being that there are tanks running around between 10 and 15, and the balancing is just fine. The point of not being a counter to it is also very flawed, at that lvl you have almost no avoidance and you're getting hit for most of the guard dmg.

The appropriate lvl tanks should have guard is 1, lvl 5 is a reasonable compromise.

[dansari]

The comparisons with the rezz ability are false imo, the correct comparison would be healing abilities

Peter and I agree with that mindset (which again, holds no value above being two players who play the game; Balance Mod <> Balance Dev).

I'd still like to see evidence of any difference in avoidance rates between a tank at rank 5 and rank 10, if anyone has it.

[darude83]

Another point is, that healers don't have group heal abilites, which makes it even harder to keep the guard tank alive. Guard in t1 is by no means as strong as it is in t4, yet essential to the archetype. Also it only works in grp, and in the chaotic and beautiful weirdness that is t1, it doesn't even apply that often.

Making it available to players at 1/5 gives them the opportunity to fulfil their desired role right from the start.

[Penril]

Playing T1 very recently, forming small roaming parties it was sometimes tough to get a tank with guard ability. It felt unfair not to be able to invite players below lvl 10, because they would bring nothing substantial to the grp.

Tanks can do very good damage in T1. IBs even have a KD (only tank with a KD in T1). Demolishing Strike is damn good (isn't it the only armor debuff in t1? I could be wrong). If you are unable to invite tanks under level 10 to your group, that's your problem (very similar to players in T4 who will never invite a certain class, like WE/WH to warbands for example).

The point of not being a counter to it is also very flawed, at that lvl you have almost no avoidance and you're getting hit for most of the guard dmg.

Most of that damage is countered by one Divine Assault/Rend Soul. Add a second healer throwing some HoTs around and suddenly guard damage is laughable in T1. Besides, how hard do you get hit in T1 anyway? No armor debuffs (cept from, oh right, tanks! those guys you don't want to invite to your groups unless they are level 10), no heal debuffs, no wounds debuff? (i think) etc. Even if their avoidance is pretty low, some have buffs from abilities like Eagle's Flight (25%) or Shield Rush (10%) and all have access to renown abilities (rr10 can give you 12% parry, or 6% block).

Flawed... right...

[darude83]

Playing T1 very recently, forming small roaming parties it was sometimes tough to get a tank with guard ability. It felt unfair not to be able to invite players below lvl 10, because they would bring nothing substantial to the grp.

Tanks can do very good damage in T1. IBs even have a KD (only tank with a KD in T1). Demolishing Strike is damn good (isn't it the only armor debuff in t1? I could be wrong). If you are unable to invite tanks under level 10 to your group, that's your problem (very similar to players in T4 who will never invite a certain class, like WE/WH to warbands for example).

The point of not being a counter to it is also very flawed, at that lvl you have almost no avoidance and you're getting hit for most of the guard dmg.

Most of that damage is countered by one Divine Assault/Rend Soul. Add a second healer throwing some HoTs around and suddenly guard damage is laughable in T1. Besides, how hard do you get hit in T1 anyway? No armor debuffs (cept from, oh right, tanks! those guys you don't want to invite to your groups unless they are level 10), no heal debuffs, no wounds debuff? (i think) etc. Even if their avoidance is pretty low, some have buffs from abilities like Eagle's Flight (25%) or Shield Rush (10%) and all have access to renown abilities (rr10 can give you 12% parry, or 6% block).

Flawed... right...

Guard dmg is 50% of the dmg that your guard takes, minus your avoidance of block/parry. What is your point exactly? That there is too little dmg in t1, and guard would further increase the ttk? These abilities are single target, if you're taking guard dmg, your guard (yourself?) is taking dmg, who are you healing?

Spoiler:

And now you're telling us that healers can heal? Riveting stuff.

Is t1 dominated by wp/dok tank comps? Because it sounds like it, reading your arguments.

Your argument regarding renown is very flawed, because you don't have that at lvl 1, where you should have guard.

What is your point exactly?

[Grulo]

Yes, there is little damage in T1, and guard at level 5 would increase TTK.

Yes, T1 is dominated by a guarded DPS Dok/WP. That duo can easily hold off 4-6 players, specially if the Dok/Tank are vets and the 4-6 players are newbies. In this case, they can hold off even more (i have seen/done it a bazillion times). I mean, if people are ok with this then fine, put guard at level 1.

How is my renown argument flawed when you ACTUALLY get guard at level 10 and (assuming you did PvP) you should also be around rr10? If anything, it is your argument the one that is flawed here; it makes no sense having guard at level 1 since your avoidance is zero.

Spoiler:

Those were my points before i got banned from this forum. Which is fine, i only post here when i have some free time and am bored at my job, which is not that often nowadays.

[peterthepan3]

Going to start spoilering any jabs/digs that don't really have any relevance to the discussion, lest this descend into a shitthrowing contest.

[adamthelc]

Tanks arent just guard bots, guard is not essential to their being. Its just a very good ability. People have been leveling tanks to 40 without any problen for how long now?

The only people who care that you have to wait until 10 to get guard are people who already know how good it is. They just want to get stronger earlier.

Considering tanks already get guard in T1, its not going to create major problems giving it to them earlier. The issue to me is, the only real argument for why tanks should get guard earlier is because they want it earlier. The question should be "do they NEED it earlier?". I dont think they do.

[darude83]

Ofc guard should increase ttk, that is the whole point. Like heals. The fact that the game is slower is a huge part of the appeal of the t1. Exactly the same can be applied to t4, dok/tank comp vs newbies.

You are arguing against guard at lvl 1 or 5, where players wouldn't have access to these renown points. So yes, it's flawed.

[darude83]

Tanks arent just guard bots, guard is not essential to their being. Its just a very good ability. People have been leveling tanks to 40 without any problen for how long now?

The only people who care that you have to wait until 10 to get guard are people who already know how good it is. They just want to get stronger earlier.

Considering tanks already get guard in T1, its not going to create major problems giving it to them earlier. The issue to me is, the only real argument for why tanks should get guard earlier is because they want it earlier. The question should be "do they NEED it earlier?". I dont think they do.

Nobody is forcing you to guard, no matter in t1 or t4. This would be a welcome proposal for players who WANT to do it. It's not great for them, it's for their grp. If you play in grp later, it's your main job. Why should you have to wait until lvl 10?