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[WP] 15pt Grace Ability

Proposals after the two week discussion period will be moved to this sub-forum for internal review.
Posts: 70

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#11 » Tue May 29, 2018 4:50 pm

After some thinking when and for what i would use it ;-)

100 feet and reducing the amount wouldn't really achive what is needed. Either the value is too high and it is still a ability and everyone who has it is quite safe(~grp morals) or it's too low that it would just be a little grp absorb which has no real benefit. Additionally it has no offtarget/defftarget use which is the brand label of melee heal to care for both.

My idea to alter it, keeping in mind that it should be a 15 pts Grace.

1 Sec casttime -> You can't just hit the button meanwhile,you have to decide if it's worth it, compared to divine assault/rend soul for example or moving ;-)

Single target 100 feet range -> You can just safe one, but the ability is strong enough to really have a benefit

-> Proc and casttime would require a good track of the battlefield because you have to use it before the focus starts.

Keep

25 %chance to proc 550 absorb shield on being hit with 1 sec internal cooldown -> like your idea to make it a proc not a allways same effect, on dual wield melee focus that should bring out more than 4k abso ...

10 sec duration -> enough time to endure a focus and /or reposition.

30 sec cooldown

In a normal grp fight environemt that ability would make the target probably unkillable as long as it lasts(i don't mean alone, in addition to normal heal guardswitch ...), which is ok if you need 15 in grace/sacrifice for it

Greetings Starilas

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Posts: 323

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#12 » Wed May 30, 2018 8:33 am

There's an issue with the current ability that I'd like to point out.

Grace WP isn't exactly strong in organised smallscale pvp, but it's even worse in mass rvr, being basically completely unviable. I think the current iteration, because of the 1s internal cooldown, buffs only smallscale and it isn't even a significant buff really. The primary issue is having the WP survive without having the mobility option that the pure dps tree provides. The aoe effect of this skill seems secondary in comparison, because if the WP lives, he and his other healer friend could certainly keep his team alive. At the same time, removing the internal cooldown will make it extremely overpowered in smallscale, so perhaps we should try to modify the idea of a "shield" that procs to protect the WP from damage.

What if instead of it being a thing that procs a shield for the entire team, it could be an effect that only works for the WP. He would press a button that would last 10-15 seconds at a 60 or more second cooldown and should the WP's HP reach 0 or something like 10%, if 0 invites some coding issues and potential bugs, he would be healed for 20% of his HP and become immune to all sources of damage for the next 2 seconds, also wiping all debuffs, snares, dots and just negative effects in general? This makes the panic button way less RNG and allows it to be a viable panic button in any pvp scenario. The short duration of the immunity should prevent it from being an overpowered ability, however if it proves to be a problem, simply adjusting the duration to 1s or something should fix it. This will pretty much ensure that the WP will 100% survive one hard focus every minute or two. It can still be countered, because the WP can be silenced when he's in a position to be focused by the enemy team, thereby not allowing him to cast the ability in the first place, or otherwise it could simply be cleansed off of him in some manner before the immunity effect goes off. Likewise, even if he does survive, it only lasts for 2 seconds, which means that in certain scenarios, it might not guarantee him safety after the immunity expires, since he could be pulled by a marauder right back into being focused or whatnot. In other words, it's not a be all end all, but it will most certainly help in absolutely any pvp scenario.
Last edited by live4treasure on Wed May 30, 2018 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Giladar - rr 82 DPS AM

Posts: 325

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#13 » Wed May 30, 2018 9:15 am

Thanks both for adding to the discussion. I see your points, and they look valid to me. Melee healing seems to be really difficult to fix:( Nevertheless, I really wanted the WP to be able to help the whole group.

@Starilas would you at least consider the ability affecting both the defensive target and the WP if they are different, something similar to the Oathfriend or Dark Protector mechanic?

@Live4treasure the issue I see with your suggestion is that it would improve the WP's survivability a lot but we keep being plagued by other issue melee healing has: The need to hit to heal. The WP would survive focus better, but in such a short time window, even if momentarily freed from cc, it si unlikely that the WP could get to hit enemies enough to provide healing.

As I said, healing or supprting the group WHILE BEING HIT is my main contention and I still think it is a possible source of viable solutions for the Grace priest.

Posts: 457

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#14 » Thu May 31, 2018 1:40 am

The proposal as it stands is just too hard to balance between small scale and open rvr. I'll break each piece down and see what we are left from to build up.

Instant Cast is pretty standard and 30s is a good cooldown for a powerful defensive effect. 30ft buff only helps a pure melee group, so the increase to 100ft would need to happen as someone posted. Absorb effect: warrior priest already has one defensive absorb tactic and one absorb ability for the party. Also absorbs effective mitigation varies vastly base on crit rates of your opponents and self. The RF gain has the potential of being exceptionally high. 30 per second.

Are you looking for every time they are hit to cause an effect, or would something like this suit your idea and address proposed issues:
Spoiler:
Sigmar's Protection: Can only be used after being snared, rooted, knockbacked, knocked down, or disarmed.. Instant cast. 30s CD. Applies a blessing for 10s (or a buff for 6s). 25% reduced incoming damage. RF cost of abilities is reduced by 50%.

Now when you are pushed out of the fight by CC, you have the ability to cast heals until the effects wear off or to prevent a group member from dieing. The reduced RF cost would allow for spamming of heals throughout the effect (if you had near 250).

The damage reduction would help assist you if you become the focused target, but only if they hamper your ability to heal yourself with lifetaps. Since the ability cannot be activated if you do not get CCed.

Posts: 325

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#15 » Thu May 31, 2018 10:28 pm

I must say your idea is very appealing. The fact that the ability could be activated while the WP is cc'd is spot on, and the fact that it can only be activated in that case is even better. I had envisioned something like that when I began thinking about this but never got to elaborate on it.

The only problem I see is that, like some of the ideas by other posters, it points to a melee-casted heals hybrid that is very difficult to make effective enough. It is true that a 25% inc damage reduction would go a long way to alleviate the lack of AoE detaunt in a Grace-Salvation spec, but on the other hand if we are gone all the way up to 15pt ability in Grace we don't have enough remaining points in Slavation tree to grab important abilities and boost our casted heals.

Posts: 38

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#16 » Thu May 31, 2018 11:00 pm

Very interesting idea. Id adjust it that way:
A new 15pt ability in the Grace tree, SIGMAR'S PROTECTION. For 10 seconds, everytime YOU are hit you and all your groupmates within 80 (or 100) ft have a 25% chance to absorb ~400 damage and receive 5 RF. 30 seconds cd. Instant cast. 30 AP initial cost (not per sec). (would be a buff, not a channel, obviously)
[changes: range; procs only when you are hit; AP cost reworked; Absorb value lowered]
what do you think about that?

edit: just noticed i missed to read page 2 of the discussion. sorry :)

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Posts: 596

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#17 » Thu May 31, 2018 11:22 pm

Spoiler:
If you buff the Dps heal tree, you make dps healing too powerful. Especially for a dps WP. They will get everything they wanted. AOE detaunt, bigger heals, signals shield. Isn’t the wounds in buff in that tree to? Dps WP and doks are in a good place. Just change beastlord and ruin gear so we have more options.
DPS (Wrath) WP <> melee healing (Grace) WP and DPS WP is not on par with DPS DoK. - Dan
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Posts: 325

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#18 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:42 am

If you buff the Dps heal tree, you make dps healing too powerful. Especially for a dps WP. They will get everything they wanted. AOE detaunt, bigger heals, signals shield. Isn’t the wounds in buff in that tree to? Dps WP and doks are in a good place. Just change beastlord and ruin gear so we have more options.
I appreciate your taking sufficient interest in this topic to contribute, but I object to some things in your post as well as to the nature of your post itself:

First, I think it had been made clear that we are discussing melee healers here, not dps healers. Some people often confuse both things, and the fact that many people playing WP or DoK focus on dealing as much damage as they can and healing only themselves in the belief that they will be able to kill a lot and die very little add to the confusion.

Actually, true melee healers only resort to spending points in the dps mastery tree because the AoE detaunt is invaluable, and some people who were trying to build effective specs that could provide reliable healing to allies in melee have had to forsake it entirely and spend mastery points in the casted heals tree instead to complement their melee healing.

I agree that the melee healing tree looks really good on paper, but reality is that melee WPs (I don’t know about DoKs) are one of the least desired people in groups and warbands. Almost everyone would rather have a standard Salvation priest. There may be many reasons for that, but in my experience in scs, for example, 2handed WPs, be they dps or melee healers tend to do rather badly. You can find many exceptions to this but statistically melee WPs tend to die much more than they kill, and they spend more time respawning in camp than actually healing their group or doing damage. I suspect that this has also to do with the fact that order isn’t as melee friendly as destroy and very often melee WPs have to go unguarded in a rdps heavy order setup with only one tank and maybe 2 WHs that go their own way, instead that the highly successful tight formation of the typical destroy melee train.

But the thing I really object to is your dismissing of this whole discussion because “dps healers are in a good place”. And I do object to it because:

1. This is a proposal discussion and only suggestions and modifications to the proposal have a place here.

2. Your dismissal of the problem flies in the face of this forum balance moderators deeming this proposal worthy of discussion.

3. And finally it also flies in the face of many forum members who have devoted years trying to improve their melee healers, looking for specs, experimenting and experiencing the hardships of this difficult and misunderstood subclass. The forum is full of experienced players commenting on the difficulties of being a healer that has to move into the frontline to heal his allies.

I do apologize for this wall of text in a proposal discussion, but felt the need to reply.

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Posts: 6509

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#19 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:54 pm

Unstoppable1776 wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 11:22 pm If you buff the Dps heal tree, you make dps healing too powerful. Especially for a dps WP. They will get everything they wanted. AOE detaunt, bigger heals, signals shield. Isn’t the wounds in buff in that tree to? Dps WP and doks are in a good place. Just change beastlord and ruin gear so we have more options.
Wrath WP isn't in a good place, and requires a lot of effort/a specific group catered towards you, to make it work. It only works against less experienced premades: the more competitive/meta groups will /lol at DPS WP.

On topic: I’m not too sure what this would do in the grand scheme of things. Absorb = not heals...so you get punted, your teammate needs a heal...an absorb won’t help much. Would you really take a Grace WP over another healer for an absorb - bearing in mind other healers have absorbs, too, plus much better heals?
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Posts: 325

Re: New 15pt ability in Grace tree [Close Date 11th June]

Post#20 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:15 pm

Yep, obviously an absorb by itself won't make people want a Grace WP over another healer. This was meant as another little step towards helping melee healing, but the process would need other implementations for sure. Also,as I stated at the beginning of the post, I proposed an absorb but I would be equally happy with health steal, flat heals or some of the suggestions in this thread about incoming damage reduction for group members, which sounds really interesting.

And yet, a bubble of, say, 550 absorb on 1sec ICD, if the defensive target is hit with enough frequency, would be similar to sigmar's radiance spamming with the advantage that you don't rely on having to have an offensive target to hit, and actually there would be occasions where the WP and his group would be enjoying BOTH Sigmar's protection AND Sigmar's Radiance, as they could be used simultaneously if the WP manages to get back to the fray before Protection wears off.
Also, if I understood correctly when people were discussing the value of bubbles, vs crit damage, absorb can be more effective than healing.

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