Reintroductions and reflections.

[Elftwin95]

Warm welcomes Azarael! May the Cadai smile upon you, it is good to have you back.

[Godsdemon03]

Have you thought about having the Community players become "class leads" and do the testing to free you and other devs up with issues ? DAOC had this in its prime and seemed to work well.

[Dancyn]

I wouldnt worry. 90% of players dont know or care about any of the drama. Me included.
As for all those that left for the other server. A server where you can say anything and no one can take offence. What universe is that? because it not in this one.

I think you underestimate the quiet people like me who rarely voice their opinions, but we pay attention to what's going on and we care. Everyone enjoys the drama, even if i only hear about it on teamspeak or guild chats, the negativity spreads easly even if they don't read the forums. It becomes a running joke on TS in the daily conversations, but at one point it might stop being entertaining and people will leave. News/tensions and the current atmosphere in the game spreads quickly especially in small communities. I recently came back to this game and started reading forums a bit, I was really surprised at staff insulting players intelligence based on their opinion that their criticism is somewhat silly and that they should go away (even though their post containted no shitposting whatsoever, maybe just incorrect conclusions of the gameplay)


I understand that it's an stressful and voluntary work and some people are often vulgar & salty, but it's essential to seperate the good apples and throw away the bad ones. i'm not sure if R&D or moderators etc, have a warning system to punish themselves if they cross the line, if they don't that's kinda bad IMO. There is no future for any private server really to maintain popularity if such acts continue to happen without any penalty or change. I've been a mod & admin on multiple popular gaming private servers and forums in the past and one of the main factors for them dying was that the headadmins/admins felt too strong about themselves and always had a final word in everything while shitting on other people. Those below them, that is regular mods/admin, had no effect on them as they posses the most power and if they disagree, they're out. "Power" issue i dare to say touches most private servers, at least it happend to every community that i got engaged in. it's important to form well structured groups and split the power well, which is never an easy task or sometimes impossible. Now i am not exactly sure how power is structured here as i hadn't been reading forums long enough, thus I cannot say this is the case here, but there seem to be some red flags. This thread on the contrary is very reasuring. Looking at your mistakes & reflecting on them is probably the most important thing in such projects.

All the negativity aside i would like to thank you for lighting a fire in my heart for this game again, as it holds one of my precious gaming memories. A few years back i could only dream about it.

[freedur3al]

Oh hi!

I had to make another account since I'm still banned by arguing with Torquemada (you can guess from the name ) after our discussion about quick escape, which lead to the Patchnotes 03/02/17, that implemented it. Both threads are really worth the read as you can see how it leads up to my forum ban. What's very funny is this particular part, where you state:

Demonstrate once more that QE is overpowered and make the people who were pushing for QE (dur3al chiefly) back down and I'll be happy to remove it.

Alternatively, demonstrate that QE busts zergs and we'll eat all the bullshit and imbalance I said and knew QE would cause for the sake of that.

A nice little experiment.

To which Wingz post on my behalf on how can I reply or discuss the changes if I'm not allowed in the forum anymore.. Again the same attitude just ends up with his post edited and him with a warning and no actual answer to the issue at hand.

Spoiler:

Even if I dont agree with dureal on QE, was it neccessary to perma ban him from the forums?
Especially since you actually want to test his theory.
He is not perma banned. His ban should escalate from the previous one; Natherul or Wargrimnir know the exact time (either 3 or 7 days, not sure). The reason for his ban was posting a "drop the mic" pic in a Patch notes thread, and wrongly quoting a dev and a mod ("iz to stronk").

"You have been permanently banned from this board.

Please contact the Board Administrator for more information.

Reason given for ban: RIP Kagami

A ban has been issued on your username."

You are not his lawyer. If I told you he is not perma banned, that's how it is. Now post about this patch, don't post at all, or do your "pointless, sorry for trying, can be deleted" charade - Penril

Btw, it was a permanent forum ban. I still cannot access my old account up to this day.

Regardless of all that though.. how did the QE implementation experiment do? Some people had some funny & pretty dire predictions:

the only reason why wp/dok were balanced just flew away, now champion challenge wil be likely mandatory to make even 1 kill.....

bias note...ye implent overpowered skill which require no trade off but i still got no hardly concession

Why exactly do I feel like a lab rat?^^

But honestly, we have way to much speed boost in the game already. Quick escape will become mandatory pretty soon as it will be the only way to get away from people as well as it will be the only way to get the people. QE and Odjira are like Nukes.... you need to have them just to uphold the balance of terror and the world would be better off without them.

Nice, SH needs to be even worse than it is now.
Now, in addition to hit like a wet noodle, SH will loose the only advantage it has over other RDPS: mobility.

It's vice versa; good luck with kiting anyone now. As soon as you do damage to the melee, you risk that his speedbuff procs. As soon as it procs, he will close distance for the snare/KD. As QE breaks on ability use, melees get no disadvantage.
Furthermore we will see lots of tanks, with lots of speed and lots of CC thanks to additional procs from guard damage.
Welcome to WAR.

Because its a absolute broken ability. Its so strong, that you have to have it, if you want to be copetitive. Thats practically the definition of broken, wouldnt you agree?

He doesnt care, he has pounce, and his pet is a bit more faster then it was on live. xd

Why are you listening to dureal? He was awful on live, and awful here..
Time to respec renown!

Terrible ability, terrible implementation. For mdps it's going to be really tough, except, maybe, WLs. Time to dust mine off then. As if gobbos didn't already have enough means (+dps) to get away.

As for the requests, I wonder whom are basing your decisions on? I didn't see a specific topic on this quick escape

It seems some people really need to understand and start following the 10 Commandments of Rational Debate in here



Fortunately some few people got the idea behind it:

You guys act like QE counters snares.

Great message. QE is the only tool that aligns the chances of smaller groups against zerg WB. Of course, people playing in the warbands can also use QE (but since it is a % based on being hit, it will only really shine a lot when you're being attacked by multiple enemies). I hope that no one will cry because now it will be harder to kill organized a smaller group. This situation should seek all the changes in RoR. Reduce the effectiveness of the zerg as much as possible. Good job. I know certainly some people will be bought by RR is still not worth a dozen points some statistics instead of QE but that's their problem .

I added the green part btw .

We all know its not really optimal for "balance" when we're talking about something that works with %, same goes for % to crit and how much better stat this becomes over the other "normal" stats. But it is how the game works, it is how it is, and we have to work with it unless you plan to redesign the whole game... and we all know where this ends/ended.

So, was it all that bad? Did it completely broke the game and stuff like 95% of the player-base thought so?



About the topic in hand, I'd just like to quote this fella here which whom I share a similar view:

Let me just try to see if the freedom of speech you are preaching is true or just a wall of dust...

I loved RoR at first, but when you left and the leadership got taken by one person in particular, the actions being taken were terrible (and I dont talk about balance, just about attitude and manner), beyond anything I can accept and I felt strongly disgusted about this project...
A lot of great players got banned for **** reasons as you said, I am afraid that today is too late to fix anything unfortunately, because a good part of those great players are gone for good now, and it's a shame because it was such a huge fun to play on this serv.

The feeling I get when I read you is particular, in a way I feel you understood and blame the shitstorm that happent, in another way I feel you forget to say a lot of things aswel and nothing good can happen until one particular thing occurs, an obvious thing, but it won't happen because what you say are just words : the house has to be cleaned.

All this time staff tried to clean the house banning some players, in a terrible way sometimes, maybe the direction was wrong and maybe it could be corrected today by cleaning the right area...

Its very noble to acknowledge mistakes made and its definitely a step in the right direction, but it seems to be all for naught if some things don't happen. And it seems that the main issue will continue, case in point:

...

In actual fact, I neither deny nor attempt to combat anything. If I have any issue with the Apocalypse server, it's that they are attempting to pass the work of myself and others off as their own, but Return of Reckoning doesn't have, and never had, the moral right to be the only WAR server, especially given that we don't adhere to 1.4.8. I do regret that rather than working on their own product, they had to resort to using a leak of the work done by RoR, but that is water under the bridge.

The existence of competition is a good thing for everyone involved for exactly the same reasons as in the real world. I wish Apocalypse every success, though I would suggest that you are premature in judging its staff before they have had the chance to demonstrate their attitude and produce and handle conflicts, because there are people who used to think Return of Reckoning's administration was benevolent and wonderful as well.

I am here to do what I can with the power that I have. I am not God and I cannot strike down those you or I may dislike. If I cannot please you, then I sincerely hope that you find satisfaction on Apocalypse.

Why I cannot find JSteam's original post? Why was it deleted in the first place if he put in an argument worth replying to, as you did it yourself putting in time and argument to address it? Where's the transparency in the conversation? You're trying to bring clarity and unity among the community and the staff once again, and stuff like this happens.. Perhaps not all of the staff share your vision?

Anyway, my opinion is that people that were responsible for the "shitstorm" era really need to step down - because I know its not something you can fix yourself, you can't just boss around with your new/old current position.

Also very necessary is stepping down the hostile attitude of the staff towards the community, the attitude of always thinking that you know better, attitude of disregarding opinions simply because you dislike the individual or his play-style. Especially when we start talking about balance. The staff must understand that sometimes players will understand more and be better players then you, especially when it comes down to PvP in all of its forms (solo, premade, warband).. no matter how hurtful this fact is to your ego, you must make peace with it and understand the argument.

The real challenge is in separating the useful logical information & feedback from all the bullshitery (trolls, l2p issues, crying, butthurt, rage) that also comes from the community, as I highlighted in the first part of this post with all the quotes. And for that, especially when dealing with so many different opinions and interests that you must be the most level headed possible and follow logic and common sense above all, not your personal opinions on what you think its best. Fortunately a lot of this can be fixed by reflection, vision & leadership - but some crossed some lines that there is just no coming back from.

[wargrimnir]

Why I cannot find JSteam's original post? Why was it deleted in the first place if he put in an argument worth replying to, as you did it yourself putting in time and argument to address it? Where's the transparency in the conversation? You're trying to bring clarity and unity among the community and the staff once again, and stuff like this happens.. Perhaps not all of the staff share your vision?

I moved it as it was basically calling for the removal of staff and was little more than inflammatory fist pounding from an account with a single post. It was responded to anyway, so I've let the rest of this thread go untouched. I did PM him to feel free to engage in the conversation further.

[Tesq]

Yes lets take some past metas related comments and throw em now,

We all know what happened with QE and RD lol

Small scale shenanigas (quick escape used as charge and RD circled 1 by 1 to ignore any snare) and orvr "run away " mentality from anything you cant kill as a full coward and total **** about anything campaign related...because appart farm small open groups/wb thats all you could.do with 1 party in rvr. There was NO realy use for face higher numbers, you simply runned away as you could and in fact do from other small scale groups too.

Impunity tank with snare immunity? ADD speed proc?! Must have been fun stack tgose things right? LOL

Idk about the ban thing, i myself took at least 1 warning that was not existing but that QE + RD tales are jokes dont beat a deadhorse.

[Azarael]

What do you think about a DW Chaos Chosen?
It's a legit question here, not a troll or anything. I was extremely curious if I am to ever see such a crude rehash of an awesome class. That 2h just feels like a waste to me, when WHFB actually supports DW. Ok, only chaos warriors have those, but that's because GW got ass cheap with Chaos Chosen models. In lore Warriors and Chosen wield multitude of weapons, and don't use throwing weapons, so it's something that should be certainly looked at!

This topic primarily concerns the state of the relationship between the RoR team and the community, so it's not my intention to comment on other matters here, but what I will say is that the split between all tanks is on S&B and a 2H Great Weapon, and I wouldn't modify this.

Quick Escape / Resolute Defense

Again, outside of the scope of this topic.

...

Nailed it. Most people don't bother to use the forums. It doesn't mean that they are unable to see which way the wind is blowing, it just means they don't comment on it. Members of the so-called "silent majority" join and leave like anyone else. The more vocal members of the community are weathercocks for an individual segment of the silent majority, and hence should never be dismissed as a "whiny minority".

With so few personalities on the team, combined with the non-profit nature of the project and power by contribution rather than by invested authority, the power structure of RoR has always been non-standard. Ostensible roles do not necessarily match up with an individual's conduct on the team. This has always been true, and I will have to work with it as it is precisely because there is no one on RoR who has the absolute, "hard" control necessary for a rigid hierarchy.

Have you thought about having the Community players become "class leads" and do the testing to free you and other devs up with issues ? DAOC had this in its prime and seemed to work well.

The historical concern with specific class leads has been twofold:

1) Difficulty of filling all of the roles with people at once
2) The threat of manipulation from one or more of the leads in defense of either their class directly or towards a meta which favours their class

In my previous period of leadership, I ensured that the internal chats of RoR were populated with select members of the community, specifically to act as a ground for staff who may be too involved in administrative affairs yet find themselves with the responsibility or will to enact change. Those members had, with me, as much influence as the actual team did, in that I would be more interested in what a person was saying rather than the person who was saying it. That is a situation to which I would like to return, but there may be complications involved.

Quick Escape

I can't tell you how it went because that period was during the beginning of the end for my previous period here. You can see from the tone of my responses that I was reaching the point where I'd had enough.

Appealing the forum ban

If you can put together a case showing what led up to the forum ban and how you feel it was unfair (or such a case already exists), then link me to it. It doesn't give me much pleasure to read through topics from that time, and I do have responsibilities here now as well.

The removal of JSteam's post

Grimnir has already addressed this. I was surprised myself, but I must acknowledge that many on the RoR team are aggrieved by the leak and do not enjoy reference being made to the other WAR server on RoR's boards. As previously stated, the rest of this thread has been left untouched, and change does not happen overnight.

I just lost everything I added below this line because I hit a mouse side button -_- so here goes again...

Anyway, my opinion is that people that were responsible for the "shitstorm" era really need to step down - because I know its not something you can fix yourself, you can't just boss around with your new/old current position.

You're right, it's not something I can fix myself, and I hope that is understood in general. The choice of stepping down or recusing oneself belongs to the members in question.

Also very necessary is stepping down the hostile attitude of the staff towards the community, the attitude of always thinking that you know better, attitude of disregarding opinions simply because you dislike the individual or his play-style. Especially when we start talking about balance. The staff must understand that sometimes players will understand more and be better players then you, especially when it comes down to PvP in all of its forms (solo, premade, warband).. no matter how hurtful this fact is to your ego, you must make peace with it and understand the argument.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe that I know better. The main problem has always been that players fall along a continuum of ability, and at the low end, this generally results in inexperienced posts which don't solve issues. However, at the high end, this results in ego and bias. It's not a coincidence, I feel, that the better players are the ones most likely to defend 1.4.8 and all the choices that were made simply based on it being an established game state that they know, despite the fact that it is itself broken. It would also be disingenuous not to point out that higher ability players are sometimes guilty of exactly what you mention in your post - dismissing the opinions of other people based not on what they are saying, but based on their performance at the game itself.

I have accepted I have been guilty of the same, and have admitted it. I did it with AoEhammer, I did it with Cannonhammer, I did it with morale and every time I tried to change the way people play the game (by changing the very fundamentals of the combat system!) to try, and fail, to force them to play the way I wanted them to, rather than the way the game naturally supports. That one is my failure, yes, and I have recused myself from the aspects of the game that do not specifically appeal to me now.

The real challenge is in separating the useful logical information & feedback from all the bullshitery (trolls, l2p issues, crying, butthurt, rage) that also comes from the community, as I highlighted in the first part of this post with all the quotes. And for that, especially when dealing with so many different opinions and interests that you must be the most level headed possible and follow logic and common sense above all, not your personal opinions on what you think its best. Fortunately a lot of this can be fixed by reflection, vision & leadership - but some crossed some lines that there is just no coming back from.

I've addressed most of this above, in that no one in the community can be trusted. Every single person posting on these forums has an agenda and their own bias, including you and me. The question then becomes, is it a good agenda? Is it a good bias? Is this person's agenda making the game the best it can be, or is it more selfish than that?

In the end, I have to make the choice, and my choices will not always be what any one person wants, as there was discord among the better players even within the QE thread. This doesn't mean that I don't listen or that I never listened.

[Telen]

Renown abilities like QE ruin balance as they give advantages or cover weaknesses classes were designed to have. Balance by class not give abilities to all. Shaman have access to QE because its part of their class design. BG IB get it from disrupt. Just tales away uniqueness.

[Tonixam]

If you can put together a case showing what led up to the forum ban and how you feel it was unfair (or such a case already exists), then link me to it.

Since cant quote from closed topic will have to do it manual:

Secrets wrote: It is one thing to preserve a game that no longer exists

Gravord wrote: Lots of valid points but part in quote is questionable. With all the imposed and simply not needed class changes it stopped to feel like "preserving WAR" a while back. To many it feels like game is being warped into something different. Tweaks are understandable, but thing like making ranged class into leading melee class (last two 6vs6 events two order teams out of ten didnt run ASW) and other unwanted changes create discontent in playerbase. Additionally every concern about those changes is met with rude responses or flat out threats of banning ppl who dare to speak up.
Not defending new server in any way, but stuff like that happen for a reason. Maybe RoR dev team should take a closer look into own ranks and evaluate if every team member behaves with at least modicum respect towards playerbase and if implemented changes are not too drastic and if game balance really needs them.
If those issues above wouldnt be real, nobody would ever bother making new server and nobody would be interested in playing there. Its the disregard of playerbase shown by certain RoR staff members that creates demand and supply for new options.

Hargrim wrote: It happened because somebody lack enough backbone and moral integrity to not do that. And some more somebodies who want to hop on that project and help to build their team using stolen property.

Gravord wrote: Yes. But you refuse to see bigger picture and only focus on that part. With content playerbase and decent relation level between community and staff nobody would be interested to hopping to that new server. One unhpapy staff member and few dozen banned players? That server wont last a week. But its not the case isnt? You are afraid it will divide playerbase from RoR server into the new one and its justified thinking. Because of disregard to community shown here by certain staff members and changing game into something that isnt WAR that players loved and wanted to continue to play.

Wargrimnir wrote: If you're going to continue to justify this, I'll be happy to remove you as well. Given your past history and attitude I see little more than veiled antagonism right now.

Hargrim wrote: There is no bigger picture tho. The team is making this game and can make it however they want. Team is not your bitch and is not to catter to your particular idea of what WAR is or should be. This is sad, I know, but that's a reality.

Gravord wrote: You do see irony right? Im talking about disregard, disrespect and resorting to ban threats for speaking up anything you dont agree with, and you do just that.
What my past history? Enlighten me, please. Silly changes to melee wp giving him speed buff on twice shorter cd than actual melee classes? Its still ridiculous "balance". Nothing changed on that topic, which i was already threaten with ban for saying when it happened.
Exactly this attitude you just show, once again, is reason why playerbase is open for new options in the first place. Nobody would give slightest **** about new server if not this kind of behavior paired with unreasonable class changes.
So go ahead, keep banning everyone who dare to talk anything other than aplaud and wonder why you loose playerbase. The honest, non cheating/exploiting one, but simple players who want to continue play WAR they loved.


aaaand Gravord permabanned on forum. Such criminal.
Was it deserved permaban Azarael?

Topic it came from viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26766&start=50
Posts 60, 82, 84, 86, 88.

[Azarael]

Later on today, I will be running through the ban history and lifting or adjusting any sanction that was applied in violation of the three main points I listed in my opening statement (i.e. it involved overreach, dissent or more force than was necessary to stop the behaviour and thus was vengeful.)

Anyone whose case is not dealt with in my initial pass (either because I do not have enough evidence of what happened or because it was never logged to begin with) will then be able to appeal to me directly.