Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

[Nameless]

I cant speak for disrupt from dps pov but as healer wp were so useless as stats and bring almost no additional value. At least now u got some defence from it. If it is too high change it but dont bring old form wp - being totaly useless for healers

[Ramasee]

I wouldn't mind seeing some actual data on how often you dudes are getting disrupted, and versus which targets. If you make deft defender a wash with true strike, its pointless to spec into deft defender because the equivalent investment in true strike, plus the strikethrough they gain from gear and Int, will mean everyone except high willpower healers and SnB tanks with Hold the Line! up will essentially have 0-5% disrupt chance. This on top of the fact that Magus, BW, and Sorc can already crit for 2k+ with a single ability, from range, hitting against resists that softcap at 40% damage reduction (and are easily debuffed by the classes that hit against said resists).

When ranged dps can just delete you without any chance to swing back or counterplay, it makes the game pretty damn boring. They've all already received a massive buff (un-nerf, maybe, but still) with the (rightful) reversion of the dot defense-on-tick changes.

So if someone could do some testing, that would be cool.

viewtopic.php?f=100&t=27019&start=40#p305768

Post #47 has some data that was tested. Only thing that has been added since then is +strikethrough renown, but formula and post #61 can account for that. Actually pretty much everyone in this thread right now needs to go back and read the thread I linked here.

True Strike
- Costs modified to be in line with crit abilities (5, 10, 15, 15) = 45 total.
Enough people seemed to think TS was an excessive addition that I'll make this tweak, but we will now see how things go.

Knowing what I know of the formula and knowing that 18% strikethrough does not actualy negate 18% parry/dodge/or disrupt(unless the offensive and defensive stats are the same), I think the change was fine. Specially considering that in ror avoidance stats everywhere are increasedmore for the same itemization: gear, tactics, abilities, etc. The way you had it during first implementation is fair.

I know i may be repeatitive and all but willpower is the only primary stats which increase an avoidance and disrupts problems are only on healers, look i think the bypass to renown skill is a great addition for customization also being this costly, but the problem is into willpower not into general disrupt % or other pure % increase.

Willpower should give half value than ini and wep skll which are not primary stats ( those are given more easily due sets which dont happen with ini/ wep skill).

Then generals bypass for every avoidance but as now costly as crit and in same %.

It's a fair point, but I think some people would argue that Willpower itself is a secondary stat, with primary stat for healers being defenses.

Willpower doesnt benefit healers in the way a main stat for a dps does. Heals dont go against an avoidance. If Willpower provided strikethrough against healbebuff, which I suppose is the heal counter, then it would be valid argument.

By that logic healers can penetrate 100% of their "resistance". Can the dps classes do this, let alone on their own? In the same way dps classes have ways to deal with their respective counter avoidances, with the exception of casters vs healers, healers have the tools to counter most healdebuffs.

All stats except wounds and toughness have a dual nature. Yes willpower is the only primary archtype stat that improves ability output and an avoidance. Willpower is also increasing only defensively natured abilities (heals).

My question is healers having high disrupt rates really an issue? They have terrible base wounds and every class that has higher base wounds gets it for free (no really look at base stats for all classes). 2/3 healers are cloth and no weapon skill/average initiative so they are highly susceptible to physical damage so 17 out of 24 classes, and they are the most targetting players in any engagement. Then you have a meta where guard goes to glass cannon dps.

Healers only have the tools to counter healing debuffs if looked at in a vacuum. Once you add in the poor quality dispeling in warhammer (compared to some other games), non scaling mostly diminished value absorbs, and the fact that heal debuffs can be covered quite easily those tools dissipate (except DOK m2 of course, lucky bastards).

High self mitigation/avoidance and party damage modifiers are what allow the notsogreat willpower modifiers and low base healing to work in this game. The more mitigation/avoidance you take away (or add) directly weakens (or empowers) healing potency in this game. And that ratio is something most of the community constantly neglects in these conversations.

[Renork]

Melee have to be in actual melee range to do damage. Casters mash buttons from 100-150 feet away to do damage. Less risk, ergo less reward. Except casters also hit against less mitigation, which they debuff even further, and have higher tooltip damage. So less risk...similar reward?

Sweetheart lets make something clear, if you truly think mdps are at a huge disadvantage, then why don't you provide some data to backup your claims? After the disrupt change went live the meta switched to melee and it still continues to favor melee. As a Magus player, I have to sit idle next to my demon to pull off my rotations and most smart players tend to immediately target me and/or simply move away the moment they see me land a dot on them. If I move away to chase, then I lose my stacks, which means I lose a significant portion of my damage. Peter has shown magi can be beast 1v1, but that requires a specific spec and stacking a very high amount of toughness. I don't play a BW, Sorc or AM, which all gain a massive advantage with true strike, so I do understand not all classes should have access to this and it should be limited. But to say disrupt is not an issue is completely ignorant.

@Volgograd you're incredibly difficult to take down and hit like a truck :^) I don't even bother targeting you because it results in a disrupt party that just turns you into a bigger monster. So, yes whether directly or indirectly the disrupt problem is a nice benefit to you. You have the luxury of targeting anyone, while certain classes were pushed to strictly target certain classes because the disrupt rates can be absurd, so I wouldn't expect you to see the problem with the disrupt rates.

[Genisaurus]

Aza posted the current avoidance code in another thread:

Code: Select all

                #region Parry, Dodge, Disrupt                

                //Parry/Dodge/Disrupt chance from tooltip
                double secondaryDefense = (((defensiveStat) * 100) / ((target.EffectiveLevel * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5));
                //Contestion based on offensive stat. This gets added to make it harder to actually do a defensive event, without actually contesting it directly above.
                //This should mimic the live formula.
                double removedDefense = (((offensiveStat) * 100) / (((caster.EffectiveLevel * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5));
                
                double baseRoll = 0d;
                baseRoll += removedDefense;

                if (cmdInfo.DamageInfo != null)
                    secondaryDefense += cmdInfo.DamageInfo.Defensibility;

                secondaryDefense += target.StsInterface.GetTotalStat(Stats.Disrupt) - caster.StsInterface.GetStatLinearModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);
                secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);
                double finalRoll = (StaticRandom.Instance.NextDouble() * (100d + baseRoll));

                 if (secondaryDefense >= finalRoll) // Disrupt
                 {
                     target.CbtInterface.SetDefenseTimer((byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT);
                     caster.CbtInterface.SetDefendedAgainstTimer((byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT);
                     defenseEvent = (byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT;
                 }

I'm going to do everyone a favor and walk through this step-by-step, so we can get real, factual numbers.

First, let's work with the assumption that any mRDPS class will have 1050 Intelligence, and any healer will have 1050 Willpower. These stats are trivial to get, at least with Sov gear, and endgame itemization should be the basis for handling balance - otherwise your **** breaks when everyone is at the endgame. Likewise, we'll assume all players involved are level 40.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = (((1050) * 100) / ((40 * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5))   -> 40
removedDefense = (((1050) * 100) / (((40 * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5))   -> 40

First we work out what our base defense chance is going to be. 1050 willpower at level 40 gives a value of 40. Likewise, 1050 Int seems to remove 40 from our defense chances... at least, that's the implication. As we'll see shortly, it doesn't.

Code: Select all

double baseRoll = 0;
baseRoll += 40;

Rather than reducing disrupt directly, the strikethrough value seems to increase the denominator of the avoidance equation. As we'll see, our disrupt chance is no longer 40/100, it's now 40/140.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense += target.StsInterface.GetTotalStat(Stats.Disrupt) - caster.StsInterface.GetStatLinearModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

This is where we add the target's increased chance to disrupt, and where we remove the attackers reduced chance to be disrupted, from the overall disrupt chance. We will assume that the defender has the same +disrupt% on his gear as the attacker has disrupt strikethrough%. Therefore the the disrupt% remains the same.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

This line looks like it should do something, but it doesn't. The function call on the right always returns '1'. I honestly don't know what this is doing here, it was probably left in because the same line did nothing on the old code either, and someone didn't want to change it, or thought it did something useful.

Code: Select all

double finalRoll = (StaticRandom.Instance.NextDouble() * (100d + baseRoll));

if (secondaryDefense >= finalRoll) // Disrupt

So as I said before, secondaryDefense has a value of 40, and we are generating a number between 0 and 140, give or take the slimmest fraction. If the generated number is less than or equal to 40, we disrupt. Therefore, our disrupt chance is 40/140.

A caster with 1050 int casting at a healer with 1050 willpower is facing a 28.5% disrupt chance. This is before Deft Defender, or True Strike. This is before disrupt or strikethrough on gear. This is before tactics.

Interestingly, if both the attacker and the defender have lower stats, the base disrupt actually decreases. If you run the same equation with 750 Intelligence vs. 750 Willpower (at level 40), the base disrupt chance is 22.2%. But if the attacker only has 800 Int and the defender has 1050 Willpower? 30.6% chance to be disrupted.


When we compare this to the old formula...

Code: Select all

int secondaryDefense = (int)((((double)defensiveStat / offensiveStat * 0.075) * 100));

if (secondaryDefense > 25)
    secondaryDefense = 25;
    
...

secondaryDefense += bonus_disrupt - bonus_strikethrough
if (StaticRandom.Instance.Next(100) <= secondaryDefense) // Disrupt

In the AoR formula, no single avoidance chance could be greater than 25%, from stats alone. Tactics, gear, renown, etc. could increase this value above 25%, but 10 Intelligence vs. 1050 Willpower would have 25% disrupt base.

So our example of 1050 Int versus 1050 Willpower would result in a 7.5% disrupt chance, base. Technically 7%, because it's an int and those round down to the nearest whole number.

So the AoR formulas had 7% disrupt. The current RoR formulas give 28.5% disrupt in the same scenario. Again, without any tactics, renown, or gear.


So how did this happen? I suspect that whomever wrote this code thought that this line:

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

Would actually return something useful. If this line returned the percent-value of the attacker's base chance to strikethrough, i.e. 1050 Intelligence would return 40/100 = 0.4. This would make the defender's chance to disrupt the attack
(40 * 0.4) / 140 -> 16/140 -> 11.4%.

A base disrupt chance of 11.4% is higher than AoR, but not obscene. However, if that were how that line worked, then it would actually cause intelligence to hurt your disrupt strikethrough. 800 Int vs 1050 Willpower would only have a (40 * 0.3047)/130.47 -> 9.3% disrupt rate. So that's a wash. If someone thought this line did something, the equation would still be wrong.

Looking at these numbers, I have to agree that the formulas have to be reverted to the AoR calculation. Or at least adjusted significantly downward, and the intentions behind this change closely examined. Healers are literally 4x as likely to disrupt incoming spells, for free. Literally just for having the stat that they needed anyways. They give up nothing to get that. That is insane.

[Renork]

Aza posted the current avoidance code in another thread:

Code: Select all

                #region Parry, Dodge, Disrupt                

                //Parry/Dodge/Disrupt chance from tooltip
                double secondaryDefense = (((defensiveStat) * 100) / ((target.EffectiveLevel * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5));
                //Contestion based on offensive stat. This gets added to make it harder to actually do a defensive event, without actually contesting it directly above.
                //This should mimic the live formula.
                double removedDefense = (((offensiveStat) * 100) / (((caster.EffectiveLevel * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5));
                
                double baseRoll = 0d;
                baseRoll += removedDefense;

                if (cmdInfo.DamageInfo != null)
                    secondaryDefense += cmdInfo.DamageInfo.Defensibility;

                secondaryDefense += target.StsInterface.GetTotalStat(Stats.Disrupt) - caster.StsInterface.GetStatLinearModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);
                secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);
                double finalRoll = (StaticRandom.Instance.NextDouble() * (100d + baseRoll));

                 if (secondaryDefense >= finalRoll) // Disrupt
                 {
                     target.CbtInterface.SetDefenseTimer((byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT);
                     caster.CbtInterface.SetDefendedAgainstTimer((byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT);
                     defenseEvent = (byte)CombatEvent.COMBATEVENT_DISRUPT;
                 }

I'm going to do everyone a favor and walk through this step-by-step, so we can get real, factual numbers.

First, let's work with the assumption that any mRDPS class will have 1050 Intelligence, and any healer will have 1050 Willpower. These stats are trivial to get, at least with Sov gear, and endgame itemization should be the basis for handling balance - otherwise your **** breaks when everyone is at the endgame. Likewise, we'll assume all players involved are level 40.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = (((1050) * 100) / ((40 * 7.5 + 50) * 7.5))   -> 40
removedDefense = (((1050) * 100) / (((40 * 7.5) + 50) * 7.5))   -> 40

First we work out what our base defense chance is going to be. 1050 willpower at level 40 gives a value of 40. Likewise, 1050 Int seems to remove 40 from our defense chances... at least, that's the implication. As we'll see shortly, it doesn't.

Code: Select all

double baseRoll = 0;
baseRoll += 40;

Rather than reducing disrupt directly, the strikethrough value seems to increase the denominator of the avoidance equation. As we'll see, our disrupt chance is no longer 40/100, it's now 40/140.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense += target.StsInterface.GetTotalStat(Stats.Disrupt) - caster.StsInterface.GetStatLinearModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

This is where we add the target's increased chance to disrupt, and where we remove the attackers reduced chance to be disrupted, from the overall disrupt chance. We will assume that the defender has the same +disrupt% on his gear as the attacker has disrupt strikethrough%. Therefore the the disrupt% remains the same.

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

This line looks like it should do something, but it doesn't. The function call on the right always returns '1'. I honestly don't know what this is doing here, it was probably left in because the same line did nothing on the old code either, and someone didn't want to change it, or thought it did something useful.

Code: Select all

double finalRoll = (StaticRandom.Instance.NextDouble() * (100d + baseRoll));

if (secondaryDefense >= finalRoll) // Disrupt

So as I said before, secondaryDefense has a value of 40, and we are generating a number between 0 and 140, give or take the slimmest fraction. If the generated number is less than or equal to 40, we disrupt. Therefore, our disrupt chance is 40/140.

A caster with 1050 int casting at a healer with 1050 willpower is facing a 28.5% disrupt chance. This is before Deft Defender, or True Strike. This is before disrupt or strikethrough on gear. This is before tactics.

Interestingly, if both the attacker and the defender have lower stats, the base disrupt actually decreases. If you run the same equation with 750 Intelligence vs. 750 Willpower (at level 40), the base disrupt chance is 22.2%. But if the attacker only has 800 Int and the defender has 1050 Willpower? 30.6% chance to be disrupted.


When we compare this to the old formula...

Code: Select all

int secondaryDefense = (int)((((double)defensiveStat / offensiveStat * 0.075) * 100));

if (secondaryDefense > 25)
    secondaryDefense = 25;
    
...

secondaryDefense += bonus_disrupt - bonus_strikethrough
if (StaticRandom.Instance.Next(100) <= secondaryDefense) // Disrupt

In the AoR formula, no single avoidance chance could be greater than 25%, from stats alone. Tactics, gear, renown, etc. could increase this value above 25%, but 10 Intelligence vs. 1050 Willpower would have 25% disrupt base.

So our example of 1050 Int versus 1050 Willpower would result in a 7.5% disrupt chance, base. Technically 7%, because it's an int and those round down to the nearest whole number.

So the AoR formulas had 7% disrupt. The current RoR formulas give 28.5% disrupt in the same scenario. Again, without any tactics, renown, or gear.


So how did this happen? I suspect that whomever wrote this code thought that this line:

Code: Select all

secondaryDefense = secondaryDefense * caster.StsInterface.GetStatPercentageModifier(Stats.DisruptStrikethrough);

Would actually return something useful. If this line returned the percent-value of the attacker's base chance to strikethrough, i.e. 1050 Intelligence would return 40/100 = 0.4. This would make the defender's chance to disrupt the attack
(40 * 0.4) / 140 -> 16/140 -> 11.4%.

A base disrupt chance of 11.4% is higher than AoR, but not obscene. However, if that were how that line worked, then it would actually cause intelligence to hurt your disrupt strikethrough. 800 Int vs 1050 Willpower would only have a (40 * 0.3047)/130.47 -> 9.3% disrupt rate.

Looking at these numbers, I have to agree that the formulas have to be reverted to the AoR calculation. Healers are literally 4x as likely to disrupt incoming spells, for free. Literally just for having the stat that they needed anyways. They give up nothing to get that. That is insane.

And yet, you still have plenty of people blatantly stating healers having incredibly high disrupt is not a "problem" and simply a player issue :^) thank you for posting this Geni.

[GodlessCrom]

Melee have to be in actual melee range to do damage. Casters mash buttons from 100-150 feet away to do damage. Less risk, ergo less reward. Except casters also hit against less mitigation, which they debuff even further, and have higher tooltip damage. So less risk...similar reward?

Sweetheart lets make something clear, if you truly think mdps are at a huge disadvantage, then why don't you provide some data to backup your claims? After the disrupt change went live the meta switched to melee and it still continues to favor melee. As a Magus player, I have to sit idle next to my demon to pull off my rotations and most smart players tend to immediately target me and/or simply move away the moment they see me land a dot on them. If I move away to chase, then I lose my stacks, which means I lose a significant portion of my damage. Peter has shown magi can be beast 1v1, but that requires a specific spec and stacking a very high amount of toughness. I don't play a BW, Sorc or AM, which all gain a massive advantage with true strike, so I do understand not all classes should have access to this and it should be limited. But to say disrupt is not an issue is completely ignorant.

I didnt say melee were at a huge disadvantage. Ranged has its own advantages, as does melee. You, and some other posters, seem personally offended by the idea that this should be so. Most classes have negligible willpower: as the data above shows, the majority of disrupt occurs due to stat gain from willpower, not from hard-statted (i.e. renown or gear) disrupt. Ergo, most targets are fair game: healers are the only hard targets for you, and thats if they have maxed Willpower (which very few do, as we are assuming healers value Willpower alone above all other stats when this isnt true: they value armor, initiative, toughness, and wounds as well, to varying degrees.)

Following what Geni said, perhaps the stat defensive formula should be altered. This would have the effect of making everyone in the game squishier, as the defensive formula applies to all stats (i.e. our parry chance and our dodge chances all go down significantly as well) but perhaps its worth it so Magi can kill healers in the pug SC.

[Renork]

Melee have to be in actual melee range to do damage. Casters mash buttons from 100-150 feet away to do damage. Less risk, ergo less reward. Except casters also hit against less mitigation, which they debuff even further, and have higher tooltip damage. So less risk...similar reward?

Sweetheart lets make something clear, if you truly think mdps are at a huge disadvantage, then why don't you provide some data to backup your claims? After the disrupt change went live the meta switched to melee and it still continues to favor melee. As a Magus player, I have to sit idle next to my demon to pull off my rotations and most smart players tend to immediately target me and/or simply move away the moment they see me land a dot on them. If I move away to chase, then I lose my stacks, which means I lose a significant portion of my damage. Peter has shown magi can be beast 1v1, but that requires a specific spec and stacking a very high amount of toughness. I don't play a BW, Sorc or AM, which all gain a massive advantage with true strike, so I do understand not all classes should have access to this and it should be limited. But to say disrupt is not an issue is completely ignorant.

I didnt say melee were at a huge disadvantage. Ranged has its own advantages, as does melee. You, and some other posters, seem personally offended by the idea that this should be so. Most classes have negligible willpower: as the data above shows, the majority of disrupt occurs due to stat gain from willpower, not from hard-statted (i.e. renown or gear) disrupt. Ergo, most targets are fair game: healers are the only hard targets for you, and thats if they have maxed Willpower (which very few do, as we are assuming healers value Willpower alone above all other stats when this isnt true: they value armor, initiative, toughness, and wounds as well, to varying degrees.)

Following what Geni said, perhaps the stat defensive formula should be altered. This would have the effect of making everyone in the game squishier, as the defensive formula applies to all stats (i.e. our parry chance and our dodge chances all go down significantly as well) but perhaps its worth it so Magi can kill healers in the pug SC.

Go re-read your posts and tell me you're not painting mdps as victims of ROR. If you are getting "blown up" because you're incompetent and can't properly play a mdps, then that's your issue. Your "numbers" are above, now you can quit your trolling, thanks.

[Genisaurus]

Following what Geni said, perhaps the stat defensive formula should be altered. This would have the effect of making everyone in the game squishier, as the defensive formula applies to all stats (i.e. our parry chance and our dodge chances all go down significantly as well) but perhaps its worth it so Magi can kill healers in the pug SC.

No squishier than they were on live. It's one thing to decide a single class, or archetype needs more survivability. It's another to quadruple everyone's defenses across the board. If TTK were really too high, there are better ways to reduce it. Especially because, as I mentioned before, increasing avoidance doesn't decrease damage, it mitigates it completely. Depending on RNG, you're either dying just as fast as you were before, or you're mitigating as much damage than a tank.

Balancing TTK in an MMO isn't an issue of "average damage over time", which can be impacted by both mitigation and avoidance. It's a factor of, every second, how much damage are you taking, how much can you mitigate, how much can you heal.

If I have a BW fighting a Shaman, and I want to increase TTK, I can either give the Shaman a flat 50% disrupt, or I can cut all damage and heals by 50%. Which one feels better? Doing 1k damage per hit instead of 2k still feels a lot better than doing 0 damage half the time.

[Foomy44]

I really don'T understand all that disrupt problematic. The dot tick being disrupt-able was a problem because it affected Dot based classes, making them unreliable and useless, so it was unfair to them, since DD classes were not affected by it - be them melee or range.

Outside of that... Parry reaches insane numbers versus disrupt. 40% parry is normal. +70% is high.

20% disrupt is normal. 40% is high. Give or take a little.

Even if the enemy could hit your back with 50% uptime, parry would still avoid an equal amount than a common disrupt value...

I may be stupid, but I don't see the problem with disrupt. It is already the 2nd lowest avoidance available for nearly all classes (dodge being inexistant or so), on a type of damage that cannot realistically be mitigated more than 40% by resist.

On my melee toons parry is an annoyance that I deal with by strafing. On my caster toons disrupt rates literally dictate who I'm able to target. I have never once on any of my alts come across an instance of "Wow this player's parry is so high I might as well just give up and target something else and hope he's the last standing cuz I'm borderline useless against him because of that 1 avoidance stat" whereas that is an occurrence in the majority of group fights I get into on many of my casters. It's a pretty noticeable difference.

[Azarael]

Now, ruthless brutality towards one another aside - what do you guys want to do? Remove True Strike and revert to the formula RoR used during my time, or work with the present situation? While Disrupt from Willpower is certainly high, is it desirable that healers have such significant resistance to magic in particular? Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?