Should 6man vs 6man matter in balance discussions?

[Telen]

Partys are 6. The games scenarios are divisions of 6. Warbands are split into parties of 6. Group abilities affect 6.
Seems pretty obvious where you balance.

[Azarael]

Humans are a base unit as well, but neither squad-level nor regimental-level combat are akin to 1v1.

[Zxul]

Point 2. You balance for the best possible play first. If no, or very few, people are playing to a level beyond PUG, what's the point?

Well, the options (at least, the ones I can see) are:

1. Do not balance.
2. Balance for best possible play, which is relevant to very small % of players.
3. Balance for pug play, which will be relevant to most of the players. Which actually shouldn't be that hard- what is used in pug is mostly aoe (minimizing it to 1-2 skills per class + morals), + rest of class abilities which are used without class synergy. Then, assuming somebody comes with class synergy powerful enough to make a major impact, balance that.

[Zanilos]

I agree on point 1. This much is obvious - if WB play were 4 6 mans then it would be equivalent to 6v6 play.

Point 2. You balance for the best possible play first. If no, or very few, people are playing to a level beyond PUG, what's the point?

(Also, 1v1 is as distinct from 6v6 as WB scale play is. Sorry.)

You don't need to worry, any WB scale changes can't really be tested anyway. I'm amazed this thread has lasted 3 pages.

[Tarantoga]

hmmm, isnt it possible to do the work for every aspect of the game? i was a long time daoc player, love it or hate it, but the balance for 1vs1, 8vs8 and zerg vs zerg was most of times really good. sure some classes were stronger as solo than others, some classes were better for 8vs8 or zerg vs zerg. but it was a pretty good mix so everyone had atleast a niche to play and have fun.

i rly love solo roam, but this niche is pretty much dead on this server. zergplay is active and 6man is atleast there. i would love to see every aspect gets some love

[Zxul]

Humans are a base unit as well, but neither squad-level nor regimental-level combat are akin to 1v1.

For that matter then- when large scale purchase of standard issue military equipment is considered- what is taken into consideration, the ability of hot shot top of his regimental to perform with the equipment, or the ability of the grunt mac average to perform with?

[Arbich]

hmmm, isnt it possible to do the work for every aspect of the game? i was a long time daoc player, love it or hate it, but the balance for 1vs1, 8vs8 and zerg vs zerg was most of times really good. sure some classes were stronger as solo than others, some classes were better for 8vs8 or zerg vs zerg. but it was a pretty good mix so everyone had atleast a niche to play and have fun.

i rly love solo roam, but this niche is pretty much dead on this server. zergplay is active and 6man is atleast there. i would love to see every aspect gets some love

I think its possible and it already work that way. I don´t understand the issue. Adding AoE-morale ( or any other no target ability/morale) 1 2 3 to class 4 5 6 doesn´t change anything. There are classes that bring almost nothing to largescale fights as how they are now (WL for example). What distinctive role these classes should fill?
6vs6 fights or smallscale fights in general often take some minutes until they are decided. How long largescale should take? And how many different situations in these fights should occur? How many abilities you should have to react to each of this situations?

[adei]

Point 2. You balance for the best possible play first. If no, or very few, people are playing to a level beyond PUG, what's the point?

Well, the options (at least, the ones I can see) are:

1. Do not balance.
2. Balance for best possible play, which is relevant to very small % of players.
3. Balance for pug play, which will be relevant to most of the players. Which actually shouldn't be that hard- what is used in pug is mostly aoe (minimizing it to 1-2 skills per class + morals), + rest of class abilities which are used without class synergy. Then, assuming somebody comes with class synergy powerful enough to make a major impact, balance that.

Pretty much that, always found it odd that balance was focused around the smallest playerbase here, but I suppose it's because for how few they are, they are the most vocal bunch. 80% of the playerbase is just casual players looking to log in for some fun, join a random warband and solo play, maybe the odd small pug group. Maybe one day focusing on the majority of the playerbase will be a thing #nostalgia

[adamthelc]

It should be both. If something is OP in one and balanced in another, it should be looked at to see if it can be changed to be balanced in both.

If something is underperforming in one any adjustment should consider how it will effect the other.

Putting emphasis on balancing for large scale is a fools errand. Doing it without regard for anything else is Folly. Large scale is so dynamic and hardly ever balanced when you consider all of the variables. Very rarely, if ever, will it truly ever be balanced.

That's the appeal of 6v6. Less variables, it can actually be close to balanced and in doing so be competitive.

TLDR The game should be considered as a whole. Not as main games and side games.

[Tarantoga]

hmmm, isnt it possible to do the work for every aspect of the game? i was a long time daoc player, love it or hate it, but the balance for 1vs1, 8vs8 and zerg vs zerg was most of times really good. sure some classes were stronger as solo than others, some classes were better for 8vs8 or zerg vs zerg. but it was a pretty good mix so everyone had atleast a niche to play and have fun.

i rly love solo roam, but this niche is pretty much dead on this server. zergplay is active and 6man is atleast there. i would love to see every aspect gets some love

I think its possible and it already work that way. I don´t understand the issue. Adding AoE-morale ( or any other no target ability/morale) 1 2 3 to class 4 5 6 doesn´t change anything. There are classes that bring almost nothing to largescale fights as how they are now (WL for example). What distinctive role these classes should fill?
6vs6 fights or smallscale fights in general often take some minutes until they are decided. How long largescale should take? And how many different situations in these fights should occur? How many abilities you should have to react to each of this situations?

well... how about a dps role for wb? or give him more utility for wb play and take just a little of the solo roam ability so they are not THE solo/single target killer they are now for a long time? volgo said it before and i rly think that the guardian wl buff is one of the biggest reason the solo niche died. sure you can play a deftard and you wont get killed by a wl but you wont kill a good wl aswell. just as an example...

in wb play you can see the imbalance just from the wb setup of competitive wb's (order as many bw's as dps and its fine, destro will take mara). i wont talk about 6man because i dont play premade atm