Should 6man vs 6man matter in balance discussions?

[Akilinus]

There are only a few minutes where we are joined by pugs AFAIK. our group is probably taking a bunch of the damage. Its irrelevant to the point though, which is how effective single target is at orvr wb level play.

Its also a 17 min long video, and you commented on it after 10 min, so obviously the whole thing wasn't watched. Probably just skimmed through it?

Yes the commentary kinda freaked me out. Your video of a 12man farming pugs is not going to convince me that somehow you should put ST in a warband

[scatterthewinds]

ok man. I'm not even saying put ST in a warband, I'm saying put ONLY ST in a warband. It is by far more effective than aoe, just watch the video with volume and watch and listen. Now if the "commentary is freaky" is the best excuse of an argument you can come up with because you are in denial than that is your call. Keep getting farmed! I'm ok with that, because we're the ones farming you.

[roadkillrobin]

this is a video I made a very long time ago, it is a prime example of single target 12 man vs aoe warband level. The results speak for themselves. I actually talk a bit about aoe vs single target groups in orvr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7S0hGTotdE&t=880s

You would't be able to hold or capture any objective with the group in that video against a bomb wb. They would simply just bunker and you wouldn't be able to do anything. Your strategy is completly based on them chasing you and then you pick of stragglers. Its effective at farming unorganized pug kills but not flipping zones. It also doesn't look like a bomb warband your facing but rather unorganized pugs.

[Akilinus]

ok man. I'm not even saying put ST in a warband, I'm saying put ONLY ST in a warband. It is by far more effective than aoe, just watch the video with volume and watch and listen. Now if the "commentary is freaky" is the best excuse of an argument you can come up with because you are in denial than that is your call. Keep getting farmed! I'm ok with that, because we're the ones farming you.

I dont play in pug warbands so I doubt you will be farming me

[scatterthewinds]

@roadkill

13:55-until the end.

Only lost 2 people (our spares without healers) and against the first wb we didn't back at all. lt took a second wb for us pull back, and once regrouped we pushed back all the way to keep postern. This is just some random clip I took from orvr, its not particularly amazing nor spectacular play, just your average 12 man.

[Glorian]

Question:
Is Dragon Gun from WH Accurate as it is currently in the Official RoR Careerbuilder?
http://www.ror.builders/career/witch-hunter
Like Knockdown on main Target for 3 secs?

So the WH has one (1) AoE Ability with a 10 sec Cooldown, that needs Accusation to be even activated at all.
Well and an AoE M3 Broad Swings.

Lesti's fast WH, WEs and WLs instant fix for Warbands is:
Make a tactic called: Broad Swings. All of your Attacks do 20% less damage but hit 2 more Targets in 20 feet.
So Order will have now two more MDPS fit for Warband play and can start their own melee train.
And WEs be free to join the non Roleplay Warbands.

[Vayra]

ok man. I'm not even saying put ST in a warband, I'm saying put ONLY ST in a warband. It is by far more effective than aoe, just watch the video with volume and watch and listen. Now if the "commentary is freaky" is the best excuse of an argument you can come up with because you are in denial than that is your call. Keep getting farmed! I'm ok with that, because we're the ones farming you.

Are you from NA by any chance? That was the dominant perspective there on live. While EU was more invested in the bomb setup. Do you know what happened when they met on the test server for city sieges? BW/Sorc got nerfed 2 weeks later.

The only reason ST damage sees more play at smaller scales is that you don't get the critical amount of AOE damage at those scales. Once you get up to a well-rounded full warband you can get the density of AOE to instamelt anything that gets too close. That's why bombing works. Stack up and spam AOE, keep your healers with the dps and no ST dps can get to them. Unfortunately I don't have the video of this, but my guild once went out with a warband consisting of 12 sorcs, 4 tanks and 8 healers (most undergeared), we wiped everything that came before us, even Red Guard. Once you hit critical mass of AOE, bombing is by far the best tactic you can use. All it needs is some coordination.

[scatterthewinds]

EU up until 1 month ago.

[Danielle]

Question:
Is Dragon Gun from WH Accurate as it is currently in the Official RoR Careerbuilder?
http://www.ror.builders/career/witch-hunter
Like Knockdown on main Target for 3 secs?

So the WH has one (1) AoE Ability with a 10 sec Cooldown, that needs Accusation to be even activated at all.
Well and an AoE M3 Broad Swings.

Lesti's fast WH, WEs and WLs instant fix for Warbands is:
Make a tactic called: Broad Swings. All of your Attacks do 20% less damage but hit 2 more Targets in 20 feet.
So Order will have now two more MDPS fit for Warband play and can start their own melee train.
And WEs be free to join the non Roleplay Warbands.

WH/WE from AoR completely lack AoE design. White Lion and Marauder at least have a semblance of AoE abilities, while Choppa and Slayer are already designed with AoE in mind. For WE/WH to be functional or fun in AoE gameplay, they would require a complete rework. I am sorry, but spamming Razor Strike that hits multiple target won't cut it, it would be mindnumbingly boring and it wouldn't and shouldn't outperform a BW = change is not really relevant. Because WH won't deal most AoE damage, hence it isn't a primary damage dealer and it doesn't have any significant warband utility, that would warrant running it over another dps (BW/Slayer). I think when it comes to WE/WH balance it should start with the single target meta (6v6 and 12v12 scenarios), where they get outperformed by the other mdps classes by a mile too. Given that the class was designed around single target, I think it's a bit overambitious to go play with it's non-existent AoE abilites, while it's underperforming and very much non-meta even at what it was designed for.

[scatterthewinds]

ok man. I'm not even saying put ST in a warband, I'm saying put ONLY ST in a warband. It is by far more effective than aoe, just watch the video with volume and watch and listen. Now if the "commentary is freaky" is the best excuse of an argument you can come up with because you are in denial than that is your call. Keep getting farmed! I'm ok with that, because we're the ones farming you.

Are you from NA by any chance? That was the dominant perspective there on live. While EU was more invested in the bomb setup. Do you know what happened when they met on the test server for city sieges? BW/Sorc got nerfed 2 weeks later.

The only reason ST damage sees more play at smaller scales is that you don't get the critical amount of AOE damage at those scales. Once you get up to a well-rounded full warband you can get the density of AOE to instamelt anything that gets too close. That's why bombing works. Stack up and spam AOE, keep your healers with the dps and no ST dps can get to them. Unfortunately I don't have the video of this, but my guild once went out with a warband consisting of 12 sorcs, 4 tanks and 8 healers (most undergeared), we wiped everything that came before us, even Red Guard. Once you hit critical mass of AOE, bombing is by far the best tactic you can use. All it needs is some coordination.

But you're assuming people are just going to run into your AOE bubble? That's unrealistic to think so, all you're going to do is farm unorganized pugs, the very same thing other people have been accusing single target specs of.