Should 6man vs 6man matter in balance discussions?

[Ramasee]

Punishments, forcing people into actions or sides, removing avenues of play.........That is some members of the community idea to get people to play a free-to-play project? Sounds worse than some governments.

As for scenarios helping flip zones, just keep in mind that you are going to bring back the sentiment from community that you should not be doing scenarios unless you win. Berating people that suck in scenarios will get worse because losing the scenario will mean more than it did before. While I don't particularly care about this happening, I am sure many people will be concerned about the level of ire that is brought against them.

[dur3al]

1. You get renown from killing players, far more so with AAO
2. You get medals from player kills, easily advancing you towards earning "campaign reward gear"
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5. You already have very generous defensive ticks for holding/killing on defended BO flag area.

These points relate to RvR personal reward system, which is not what we're talking about here. We are talking about a way to contribute for your realm to "win".
If you advocate that the personal reward you get from farming AAO/underpopulated side is enough, then you are content with the current system and people will still not give a flying **** about realm pride, locking zones or progressing their realm etc.

3. Killing players in RvR has chance to drop supply box, which you bring to keep so that even your small effort of having ganked someone will help supply status of your realm, potentially even being driving force behind zone lock.
...
6. Solo players, small groups, you can already send your mdps to sneak into keeps via posterns, damaging enemy siege weaponry should further increase your contribution.
7. Can't sneak in? ; bring a siege weapon, help your realm by shooting down enemy siege targets.

These points only contribute to the problem of blobbing and linear progression forcing people to be around the keep during the final battle. Not to mention the lag/crashes factor & so on.

4. You, one player alone can hold a flag, giving dmg boost to ram and helping your realm kill enemy keep lord.
8. Running low on weapon ammo, help your realm by clearing enemy flag holders and delivering supplies to your own realm.

Due to the fact that the RvR is basically forcing everyone to be around the last keep, the above points are just generally boring game-play and not really any fun, you're basically saying if you don't want to blob at the keep, then stand for minutes in a BO staring at the flag in an empty BO. Not to mention that after a certain star level that your realm gets, those points become null.

If you have some grand redesign for RvR system, I'd be happy to read but I think you might need to open a new thread so more can see your thoughts on improving the system instead of derailing this thread further.

Sure this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, since all my RvR talk relates to how people see bombing as the way-to-go for RvR progression. But you can see the logical steps it took from the argument. As I said previously, this has been somewhat discussed somewhere last year too when RvR design was being discussed.

I rather have a mechanic to force them to play the damn campaign

If there is something i've learnt in these past few years, is that it is a terrible mistake trying to force people to play the game the way YOU want.

This. I mean... if people haven't learned the lesson yet, I don't know what to say.

Im for adding more objectives to RVR actually. I think an alternative wincon would solve the linear progression which leads to the blobbing of multiple warbands.

This is the main point of what i'm trying to say, yes.

What im against is making a kill X players to flip the zone coz it doesn't really add any deepth to strategies and just promotes 6v1 ganking, something I think is just as toxic as 32v6 is.

Again... The idea is that both objectives held and kills contribute to the score. So you take an objective and hold it which will start generating x amount of points, but direct kills also contribute to the scoring system a bit. Sure you could add something else like the example you posted, but the bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that you cannot have everything be resolved at the keep in one final battle - it ends up in blobbing (also not mentioning people just turn on to go to this final battle anyway, skipping all the rest of the RvR).

70% of skills arn't used in small scale rotations either. It's a really bad argument.

I used when I was playing - 70% of the useful skills from my spec anyway. For example: who does the BW from the bombing warband detaunt when bombing? I sure as hell had to use my detaunt VERY carefully while roaming in my small scale group. But lets agree that we disagree for the sake of it.

Punishments, forcing people into actions or sides, removing avenues of play.........That is some members of the community idea to get people to play a free-to-play project? Sounds worse than some governments.

As for scenarios helping flip zones, just keep in mind that you are going to bring back the sentiment from community that you should not be doing scenarios unless you win. Berating people that suck in scenarios will get worse because losing the scenario will mean more than it did before. While I don't particularly care about this happening, I am sure many people will be concerned about the level of ire that is brought against them.

This is actually correct. But to be fair, people should be joining a scenario game trying to achieve victory in mind, hopefully it'll make people try to group more to have a bigger winning chance - currently nobody cares about any of that because they know there is not really any consequence to losing besides wasting your time a bit, which is also why most people go afk mode after first wipe. With that in mind, perhaps would make sense to not just give x amount of points to the winning side, but also make it relate to the actual score of the sc. So for example if you won by 500-100 you get 10 points to your faction and the losing side gains 2 points. If you won 500-400 the winning side gets 10 points and the losing side gets 6. Something like this anyway..

[peterthepan3]

Agreed with the points Dureal made about SC and wanting to win. May even motivate people to start playing properly, instead of queuing for all and 'hoping' to win 'just because'. Would even give a purpose to those elite boy bands (outside of farming the level 32 greengeared players, which we all love to do apparently!)

[roadkillrobin]

Punishments, forcing people into actions or sides, removing avenues of play.........That is some members of the community idea to get people to play a free-to-play project? Sounds worse than some governments.

As for scenarios helping flip zones, just keep in mind that you are going to bring back the sentiment from community that you should not be doing scenarios unless you win. Berating people that suck in scenarios will get worse because losing the scenario will mean more than it did before. While I don't particularly care about this happening, I am sure many people will be concerned about the level of ire that is brought against them.

But thats how human psychology function. No one would work if they weren't punished for not doing so. No one would go to the gym if they could just maintain their physique by doing nothing. The rewards in life comes from putting in more effort relitive to their enviromental peers by doing stuff that is allready essential to them even exist in the first place.

As for scenarios contributing to RVR is generally a bad thing. But scenarios helping to minimize a realm debt system could function. I'm thinking about a global system where PVE, RVR and SC would function simular to the xp debt system from deaths in City of Heroes, where the last couple of renown ranks would be perishble and starts decay if your realm would be performing worse then oposing realm.

[Penril]

But thats how human psychology function. No one would work if they weren't punished for not doing so. No one would go to the gym if they could just maintain their physique by doing nothing. The rewards in life comes from putting in more effort relitive to their enviromental peers by doing stuff that is allready essential to them even exist in the first place.

A lot of people work simply because they would be bored to death without a job.
A lot of people actually love going to the gym.

And even if we pretended for a second your examples weren't terrible, fact remains this is a video game and if you punish me for not playing the way you want me to play, i will just play something else

[roadkillrobin]

But thats how human psychology function. No one would work if they weren't punished for not doing so. No one would go to the gym if they could just maintain their physique by doing nothing. The rewards in life comes from putting in more effort relitive to their enviromental peers by doing stuff that is allready essential to them even exist in the first place.

A lot of people work simply because they would be bored to death without a job.
A lot of people actually love going to the gym.

And even if we pretended for a second your examples weren't terrible, fact remains this is a video game and if you punish me for not playing the way you want me to play, i will just play something else

And thats what happen even with not punishing for giving up. They log off or switch realm even tho there are more rewards to gain relativly.

Soccer is also just a game. If you leave walk over enough times in any you eventually get thrown out of the leuge.

[Tesq]

we have been trought the sc talk about orvr lock system before:

THAT IS EXPLOITABLE by the loosing side

-only 1/2 premade queue for sc from loosing side; either solo queue or group one.
-multiple premade from the winning side queue/ or multiple soloers/randoms/casulas /low level
-high chance that the not good one get the match/ newbe /low level get the match

winning orvr side in practics kept get block by scenarios........by 6/12 ....(troll much?)
in before any suggestion about any counter measure, no, ppl will log out to avoid any countermeasure you can put up so that those are the only 6/12 ppl who can do something and will keep block the lock.

unless the vp is brought back in a form where sc is very meaningless for the lock (which then raise question why do that then? ) this gona be exploited all the time....

do you really think ppl will NOT log out to save the city from being sack? for not give enemy realm sovereign ?

also why 6vs6 or 12 vs 12 killing game should matter when Orvr is not about kill is about HOLD OBBJECTIVE not kill, is about STRATEGY not skill....in kill.....ppl....

KILL is an isntrument to achive hold onbjective....battle and kill is fun but the objective is "conquering" not kill....

you can prob farm a side in a keep def by pull out ppl from bottom floor but they will still win by kill keep lord in the end even if they didnt do any kill because you didnt push inside......

there is no kite shenaningas as in sc, orvr is much more aggressive because is not about kill and remain alive is about REMOVE the presence of the enemy from an objective. Once that you dont care even if the enemy flew away, you dont **** care.

aswell as how many ppl are even demanding a change like that. how much the game can benefith from something like that, how many ppl even want something like that.... 2 ppl asking for something on the forum especially when they reppresent small scale scneario and thus few ppl per se by size of ther playing group is not = to reppresent the majority of ppl on the server.

sidenote , is not fun at all as meccanic.....

[Penril]

And thats what happen even with not punishing for giving up. They log off or switch realm even tho there are more rewards to gain relativly.

Soccer is also just a game. If you leave walk over enough times in any you eventually get thrown out of the leuge.

Are you seriously comparing a soccer league to RoR? This is not a job. This is not even a gym. This is a video game where people log in to have FUN. If you want to force me to do something i don't want to, i will go play something else (edit: i already am). It' s really that simple. Anyway, i don't expect to convince you (i already know what it is to discuss anything with you). All i hope for is for devs to not share your vision (which i am 99% sure they don't).

[Tesq]

If you want 6mans to participate in helping to lock zones and pushing zones then they need a reason to do it.

Lets say there is praag open. Destro have 100aao. Why would any 6man want to log order to help lock the zone? There's less enemies so less action, more allies thus much easier fights, less renown profits, more zerging, you get to spend 30mins semi afk looking at a keep door health bar, then spend another 30mins in a laggy **** fest waiting to get past a tank wall, then spend another 30mins semi afk hitting a keep lord. Just to lock a zone to get a cow pie or your 7th genesis shard when you only need a fragment. Or you can log destro with AAO and have insane action.

There is currently no reason to help lock a zone. Give 6mans a reason to help lock a zone and they will (gear or renown). The reward has to be great enough in value to offset the boredom of helping a dominant realm lock a zone.

yes the point is offer small scale minigame in orvr which only small scale guilds or 6 mams or whatevern can do, steal/transport relic is one of those for exemple if relic system from live was made inside zone instead being for all pairings. usually small groups are due size , elite kill team for fixed missions; orvr should also offer something like that for small groups (it's also another way to give reasons for orvr to wh/we).

atm rvr is very very linear, it's not a fault of ror team is just how much the project had progressed far due all the things that need to be done...

[Telen]

But thats how human psychology function. No one would work if they weren't punished for not doing so. No one would go to the gym if they could just maintain their physique by doing nothing. The rewards in life comes from putting in more effort relitive to their enviromental peers by doing stuff that is allready essential to them even exist in the first place.

Maybe we should get G4S in to manage the game. Maybe start handing out sanctions where people lose levels if they dont play the "correct" way.
Theres an obesity crisis and most people I know love their jobs, no punishment needed. This is a game not healthy eating. It wont harm people to just turn off and go play something else that doesnt punish them for playing how they like. In fact the type of people you talk about that do the right thing wont waste their life playing an mmo anyway.
The main reason you wont get a smallscale scene or people really caring about the campaign is the game died. Theres no kudos to it outside a tiny niche community. Its not like wow where you have thousands watching you stream.