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Tzeentch's Firestorm

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Orontes
Posts: 332

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#31 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:06 pm

Azarael wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:04 am I have no intention of overpowering the 11 pt tactic and promoting Firestorm spam to fix wider problems with Changing.

Someone needs to make a proposal on Grenadier and Changing together, because both have issues and no one seems to be capable of agreeing exactly what they are meant to do. Mist and Napalm are just terrible abilities and not worthy of the 13.
The Sorc tactic Neverending Agoney that shortens the cooldown 10 seconds is the 11 point tactic. The BW tactic Fiery Reserves that shortens Rain of Fire's cooldown is the 7 point tactic. I don't see how adding the same cooldown to Firestorm at 11 points (that would be exactly the same as how it was under the Havoc Mastery) constitutes overpowering. Further, if the Change Mastery is the weakest for Magi, an overpowered claim seems problematic.

Prior to the swap I don't recall any mass of threads arguing that Firestorm was overpowered under Havoc. It was a good ability, but was something that had to be spec'ed for unlike Pit of Shades or Rain of Fire that are both core abilities and further benefit from the extra damage bonus connected to the Sorc/BW mechanic.

The swap of Firestorm and Indigo was interpreted as thematic. If that is right, then Wild Changing should have the same cooldown that Chaos Unleashed did. This in fact was what most magi that noted the swap assumed was the case, only to be confused by the absence of the cooldown. If that is wrong and you saw Firestorm as too powerful, what is that impression based on? It didn't out perform Pit of Shades or Rain of Fire. What was the argument that convinced you of such? The removal seems arbitrary.

Per the larger issues with Changing and Grenadier: that is a topic(s) that requires a much larger proposal. What that ends up being can address Firestorm in that larger context. It doesn't appear any solution is on the table, therefore, and as things stand now: this is only focused on one tactic and how it would affect one ability. It doesn't follow that because everything in the Changing mastery isn't being fixed, that nothing should be. Having the Changing tree able to put out a little more sustained damage in a control area by layering ability damage can only make that mastery better. If none of this is a go, then simply reverse the swap. It wasn't something that a large body was calling for and as stated before seemed to have value only for thematic consistency.

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Renork
Posts: 1208

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#32 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:13 pm

Nidwin wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:04 pm
Azarael wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:04 am I have no intention of overpowering the 11 pt tactic and promoting Firestorm spam to fix wider problems with Changing.

Someone needs to make a proposal on Grenadier and Changing together, because both have issues and no one seems to be capable of agreeing exactly what they are meant to do. Mist and Napalm are just terrible abilities and not worthy of the 13.
I agree with Renork on the Mist part. The only use I've ever found for Mist was on the live, post 1.4.X to deny order to lock a BO when timed or to give my group/wb a 20s+ early leave from a BO.

I can't speak for Engies, only experiences with my Magus.
Havoc and Daemonology are build up specs based on a combo of dots and dd's. As Neut and Beardz often wrote, we have a blow up rotation in Havoc, we just need more time to build it up vs Sorc. Daemonology (melee spec) is the same kind of build up with lash as dd spamable.

I'll let others with better knowledge about Havoc rotations post, but for Daemonology the involved skills I use
Daemonology rotation -> Glean Magic (spirit debuff plus subar aoe damage) + Pandemonium (Endless Pand slotted for lols sometimes) + Infernal Blast + Agonizing Torrent (optional) + Lash spam -> Chaotic rift somewhere before Infernal Blast.

If we put aside Mist, Path of Changing tree lacks at least one solid ranged aoe skill.
Changing rotation -> Glean Magic + Pandemonium + Tzeentch's Firestorm

On the AoR server a Magus could apply Pandemonium twice having a double Pand ticking for half of the duration but that was still poor for a path of changing Magus and not a solution.

Infernal Pain tactic is crap and is clearly not helping anyone. Seed of Chaos is crap, single target and damage way too low. But both do have a potential with some rework to fill the lack of ranged aoe skill if properly boosted. (my opinion)

As for Mist, ...
I'm afraid that needs to become something very different.
My standard havoc rotation is BoC --> MBF + SVF (surging power slotted) --> 1x IFOC tic. It's very much dependent on crits and having 8 stacks from the demon however. The burst is great if they crit, but they all have a 10s CD so I switch to FRF --> PoTW or FRF --> SoI afterwards. It's a lot easier to burst down people aka "sorc style" if I can land BT and WS and time it correctly, but most people nowadays move out of range if they see WS on them. The havoc tree right now is pretty solid and functions as our "burst" tree. Like you mentioned, daemon is the pbaoe/tank spec and has its uses.

Change is the crap path :^)

@Orontes

I don't see how lowering the CD back down to 10s will do anything for you, other than allowing you to fully channel it and recast it right away again, which is typically done when you're attacking/defending a keep. I don't see it as necessary because the tree is still pretty much garbage even with that change, but I will agree that there is nothing overpowered about lowering the CD by 6 seconds with the tactic slotted. If firestorm stacked with others storms, then sure.. but it doesn't..so~

Orontes
Posts: 332

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#33 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:19 pm

Nidwin wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:38 am Why do you compare Tzeentch's Firestorm with Pit of Shades @Orontes? (don't play BW so no idea about Rain of Fire)
Is it cry baby mode, I don't want my not well balanced Tornado of doom properly being balanced vs other similar existing skills?
I compare Firestorm with Pit of Shades because they both are AOE tied to a chosen spot. Shadow Knives is target specific.

Orontes
Posts: 332

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#34 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:42 pm

Renork wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:13 pm @Orontes

I don't see how lowering the CD back down to 10s will do anything for you, other than allowing you to fully channel it and recast it right away again, which is typically done when you're attacking/defending a keep. I don't see it as necessary because the tree is still pretty much garbage even with that change, but I will agree that there is nothing overpowered about lowering the CD by 6 seconds with the tactic slotted. If firestorm stacked with others storms, then sure.. but it doesn't..so~
I don't think Firestorm with the cooldown applied was overpowered. The claim that it was begs the question, particularly as there aren't any mass of threads complaining about it. As you note, it never stacked and people could and can always simply move.

My guess was that when the ability swap was done, it wasn't noticed that Chaos Unleashed had the cooldown for Firestorm, so nothing was done to Wild Changing. If that's wrong the removal seems arbitrary.

I agree with you that most of the times I see Firestorm being used is around keep actions, the same way I see Pit of Shades or Rain of Fire being used. In that vein, I don't see any reason the crappy Changing Mastery should have a weakened Firestorm. Allowing Change Magi to put out sustained layered damage by combining Mist with Firestorm seems like a good thing to me. The Mastery line is basically rubbish, so until some grand plan for Changing and Grenadier arrives, why shouldn't the Change Magi have some help? To that point: I don't think it follows that because everything can't be done, nothing should be done. Swapping the two abilities is fine, it makes thematic sense, but allow Firestorm to perform as it has previously for those Change Magi that put the mastery points into it.

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Renork
Posts: 1208

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#35 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:52 pm

Orontes wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:42 pm
Renork wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:13 pm @Orontes

I don't see how lowering the CD back down to 10s will do anything for you, other than allowing you to fully channel it and recast it right away again, which is typically done when you're attacking/defending a keep. I don't see it as necessary because the tree is still pretty much garbage even with that change, but I will agree that there is nothing overpowered about lowering the CD by 6 seconds with the tactic slotted. If firestorm stacked with others storms, then sure.. but it doesn't..so~
I don't think Firestorm with the cooldown applied was overpowered. The claim that it was begs the question, particularly as there aren't any mass of threads complaining about it. As you note, it never stacked and people could and can always simply move.

My guess was that when the ability swap was done, it wasn't noticed that Chaos Unleashed had the cooldown for Firestorm, so nothing was done to Wild Changing. If that's wrong the removal seems arbitrary.

I agree with you that most of the times I see Firestorm being used is around keep actions, the same way I see Pit of Shades or Rain of Fire being used. In that vein, I don't see any reason the crappy Changing Mastery should have a weakened Firestorm. Allowing Change Magi to put out sustained layered damage by combining Mist with Firestorm seems like a good thing to me. The Mastery line is basically rubbish, so until some grand plan for Changing and Grenadier arrives, why shouldn't the Change Magi have some help? To that point: I don't think it follows that because everything can't be done, nothing should be done. Swapping the two abilities is fine, it makes thematic sense, but allow Firestorm to perform as it has previously for those Change Magi that put the mastery points into it.
You're going to have to convince Aza on that one, but I will agree that there is nothing overpowered about it (just another way to leech or be useful in keep defense). The problem is people like Tesq (not just Tesq of course, that's why I added "people") said OMG STORM + MIST + RIFT = INSTAGIB EVERYTHING HELP GG DESTRO BROKE THE GAME... which is...not the case at all. So, since everyone prefers to throw numbers out of their ass or play the "theorycraft" game instead of ACTUALLY testing, then apparently storm is now overpowered based on word of mouth, lol. It makes no difference to me whether it's 16CD or 10CD, so I'm not going to entertain a mindless back and forth to try to justify the change :^) but I'll support you if needed though.

Aerogath
Suspended
Posts: 236

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#36 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:55 pm

Either i'm doing something wrong or it got hotfixed, because i tried it and it won`t work.

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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#37 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:38 pm

Ppl like.me saying that

storm is no good on change

and the only thing it can do is make stronger the potency of demonology aoe and is **** for change mastery?

Idk man exept the fact tha renork confirmed he use indigo as part of his standard rotation and so he likes the indirect indigo buff idk, maybe is ppl like you that dont get it? That is a rr70 build and ....how many magus can put up that build? Is that magus spec good? Not many so it wont shine this dont mean is well balanced fir what that class can do on deamonology.

If you pull for your WB (not small scale) and you throw a diss mist and an aoe snare (which refresh tonall ticks) and you had pre dot you can be sure that is a big help....

-increase dmg target dot on primary target when flamer
-increase range + 20 feet for base whole mastery
-5pt speed proc
-indigo on 13 pt back to his right place and give it a heal debuff if flamer on
-dissolving mist cd cutted or removed.

St stuff help mist NOT aoe one..
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Renork
Posts: 1208

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#38 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:46 pm

Tesq wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:38 pm Ppl like.me saying that

storm is no good on change

and the only thing it can do is make stronger the potency of demonology aoe and is **** for change mastery?

Idk man exept the fact tha renork confirmed he use indigo as part of his standard rotation and so he likes the indirect indigo buff idk, maybe is ppl like you that dont get it? That is a rr70 build and ....how many magus can put up that build? Is that magus spec good? Not many so it wont shine this dont mean is well balanced fir what that class can do on deamonology.

If you pull for your WB (not small scale) and you throw a diss mist and an aoe snare (which refresh tonall ticks) and you had pre dot you can be sure that is a big help....

-increase dmg target dot on primary target when flamer
-increase range + 20 feet for base whole mastery
-5pt speed proc
-indigo on 13 pt back to his right place and give it a heal debuff if flamer on
-dissolving mist cd cutted or removed.

St stuff help mist NOT aoe one..
Lol I still used the same rotation before the patch, and the extra 150-200ish increase is very insignificant for an ability that is on a 10s CD. You can continue to theorycraft and convince yourself all you want though.

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Tesq
Posts: 5713

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#39 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:03 pm

Renork wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:46 pm
Tesq wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:38 pm Ppl like.me saying that

storm is no good on change

and the only thing it can do is make stronger the potency of demonology aoe and is **** for change mastery?

Idk man exept the fact tha renork confirmed he use indigo as part of his standard rotation and so he likes the indirect indigo buff idk, maybe is ppl like you that dont get it? That is a rr70 build and ....how many magus can put up that build? Is that magus spec good? Not many so it wont shine this dont mean is well balanced fir what that class can do on deamonology.

If you pull for your WB (not small scale) and you throw a diss mist and an aoe snare (which refresh tonall ticks) and you had pre dot you can be sure that is a big help....

-increase dmg target dot on primary target when flamer
-increase range + 20 feet for base whole mastery
-5pt speed proc
-indigo on 13 pt back to his right place and give it a heal debuff if flamer on
-dissolving mist cd cutted or removed.

St stuff help mist NOT aoe one..
Lol I still used the same rotation before the patch, and the extra 150-200ish increase is very insignificant for an ability that is on a 10s CD. You can continue to theorycraft and convince yourself all you want though.
Ah now you say is irrelevan as dmg increase and you still use it but in patch note it was all about indigo be crap and not even in rotation....
Man you can re-read what you want stil the fact dosent change that stand correct in my post in patch note thread, havoc was indirect buff (NOT just insigo..3pt in all mastery increase whole build dps NOT just indigo) firestorm there is only usefull for deamonology at rr 70 and is good at it.

Change st issues were being ignored.

Havoc due the indigo change can now spec aegis like engi does (keg) increase the survabillity of a glass cannon build.
Last edited by Tesq on Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Renork
Posts: 1208

Re: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Post#40 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:17 pm

Tesq wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:03 pm
Renork wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:46 pm
Tesq wrote: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:38 pm Ppl like.me saying that

storm is no good on change

and the only thing it can do is make stronger the potency of demonology aoe and is **** for change mastery?

Idk man exept the fact tha renork confirmed he use indigo as part of his standard rotation and so he likes the indirect indigo buff idk, maybe is ppl like you that dont get it? That is a rr70 build and ....how many magus can put up that build? Is that magus spec good? Not many so it wont shine this dont mean is well balanced fir what that class can do on deamonology.

If you pull for your WB (not small scale) and you throw a diss mist and an aoe snare (which refresh tonall ticks) and you had pre dot you can be sure that is a big help....

-increase dmg target dot on primary target when flamer
-increase range + 20 feet for base whole mastery
-5pt speed proc
-indigo on 13 pt back to his right place and give it a heal debuff if flamer on
-dissolving mist cd cutted or removed.

St stuff help mist NOT aoe one..
Lol I still used the same rotation before the patch, and the extra 150-200ish increase is very insignificant for an ability that is on a 10s CD. You can continue to theorycraft and convince yourself all you want though.
Ah now you say is irrelevan as dmg increase and you still use it but in patch note it was all about indigo be crap and not even in rotation....
Man you can re-read what you want stil the fact dosent change that stand correct in my post in patch note thread, havoc was indirect buff, firestorm there is only usefull for deamonology ay rr 70.

Change st issues were being ignored.

Havoc due the indigo change can now spec aegis like engi does increase the survabilkty of a glass cannon build.
Kind of hard to "get it" with the way that you type, no? You made a stupid comment about OMGHAVOCBUFF, DAEMON BUFF, rr70 MISTSTORM!!! it's an insignificant buff and you're raging about change being useless now. Guess what Tesq? change has always and will always be useless. You make it sound like changing IFOC from change completely broke the tree, which is completely hilarious. Again, continue theorycrafting (I'm not here to burst your dreams), but your comments are so dumb sometimes.

Sweet a LONG range st spec has access to an "ohshit" button that gives your healers a couple of more seconds to react, CRAP!! BROKEN!!

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