Healhammer Online

[Telen]

I haven't complained about anything in this discussion about group cleanses. You seem to be combining separate arguments and arguing against points that weren't made. I was just asking you to clarify your statement of "Shaman don’t get how good they have it not being gcleansed." since it doesn't seem entirely accurate to me unless I misread something. I was never under the impression DPS AMs are running around with group cleanse tactic slotted.

You post ss of a sc with only healers that cant cleanse the dot class you are complaining about, did you know you were doing this? Im just pointing out you completely ignore that the most played healer on des can not only gcleanse am but has an M2 that can gcleanse every dot from the group.

So far weve had complaints about a am tactic that was removed ages ago, complaints from the class that cant cleanse am that they do too much dot dmg despite dot damage being the same as live, complaints that st dmg is too high vs pugs compared to live despite my ss of 550k dmg against pugs on live, complaints that they are better than bw to which I jumped on an ungeared bw getting half our dbs vs 2 dpsam that did 1 db and hardly any healing while a sorc that they cant cleanse owned, complaints that dps healers heal too much by a guy that then posts a ss of a bw getting 28 dbs against his dps healer.

[Foomy44]

Spoiler:

I haven't complained about anything in this discussion about group cleanses. You seem to be combining separate arguments and arguing against points that weren't made. I was just asking you to clarify your statement of "Shaman don’t get how good they have it not being gcleansed." since it doesn't seem entirely accurate to me unless I misread something. I was never under the impression DPS AMs are running around with group cleanse tactic slotted.

You post ss of a sc with only healers that cant cleanse the dot class you are complaining about, did you know you were doing this? Im just pointing out you completely ignore that the most played healer on des can not only gcleanse am but has an M2 that can gcleanse every dot from the group.

Honestly, what does my screen shot of an SC scoreboard (that I already agreed is meaningless so why are we still bringing it up?) have to do with me asking you to clarify your statement of shamans not having to deal with gcleanse? I am having a ton of trouble trying to follow your logic. Can we just agree that shamans do indeed have to deal with group cleanse unlike your statement claimed and move on?

[Foomy44]

Shaman don’t get how good they have it not being gcleansed.

I'm confused, are you implying AM don't have access to a group cleanse tactic?

Shaman don't get grp cleansed by WP, albeit heal AM can now grp cleanse shaman.
Well, the argument wasn't the best but it is still correct, that in this particular sc, the order setup was way better than destro one, because cleanse disadvantage against dot heavy rdps.

Why does this particular SC that I posted a screenshot of have anything to do with roadkillrobin's statement of "Same argument can be used for pretty much every other class. Just cleanse the bad **** and you're ok." that telen was replying to?

[Telen]

Honestly, what does my screen shot of an SC scoreboard (that I already agreed is meaningless so why are we still bringing it up?) have to do with me asking you to clarify your statement of shamans not having to deal with gcleanse? I am having a ton of trouble trying to follow your logic. Can we just agree that shamans do indeed have to deal with group cleanse unlike your statement claimed and move on?

Did you not get my reference to Khaines Withdrawal. Shaman dont have to deal with that and until recently didnt have to deal with any gcleanse.

[Foomy44]

Honestly, what does my screen shot of an SC scoreboard (that I already agreed is meaningless so why are we still bringing it up?) have to do with me asking you to clarify your statement of shamans not having to deal with gcleanse? I am having a ton of trouble trying to follow your logic. Can we just agree that shamans do indeed have to deal with group cleanse unlike your statement claimed and move on?

Did you not get my reference to Khaines Withdrawal. Shaman dont have to deal with that and until recently didnt have to deal with any gcleanse.

Ok, so they do have to deal with group cleanse, the opposite of what you originally said. Thank you for clarifying.

[Sulorie]

Why does this particular SC that I posted a screenshot of have anything to do with roadkillrobin's statement of "Same argument can be used for pretty much every other class. Just cleanse the bad **** and you're ok." that telen was replying to?

Because unlike other more direct dmg oriented classes, cleansing almost nullifies dmg of dot heavy classes.
If you had 2 dok and 2 zealots instead the shamans, the results would be totally different.

[Telen]

Foomy seems to not really understand the basics of class counters and then wonders why he has problems. You need to know and play other classes to know how to counter them. For instance against a sorc I will snare + get out of range or silence before WoD hit because I know i cant cleanse and burst is coming. When AM lands it heal debuff you silence or get out of range as you know whats coming and you cant cleanse that debuff.

[Lokiusus]

Putting this thread back on track - I don't think there's a problem with the healing in the game. The meaty combat lets classes/tactics/CC timing really feel important. If every BW/Sorc evaporated the enemy team within seconds of contact the game would just suck.

Regarding AMs:

1. I'd just like to point out that my glass cannon Magus' Indigo Fire of Change ticks twice every six seconds, for around 1000-1200 damage if I crit, while the scorching touch tactic lets AM have around the same damage output in half the duration - a pretty notable increase in burst DPS.

I'm not sure whether that says more about the state of Magus play or AM's being overpowered, but I'm regularly reminded that my Magus can't heal himself.

2. Looking at what Dan and Peter have said, it seems like they're looking at balance from a premade/WB point of view, but I just wanted to point out that this game is not just premades.

I feel like Destro especially runs in more of a "laissez faire" manner than Order does, and I'm not sure either of you play enough Destro to understand the (pretty overwhelming) dissatisfaction with AMs on our side. For me, at least, it's at the point where not only are solo AMs killing me on more than just my RDPS chars, but if I go into Doomfist and see two or more AMs on the enemy team, I start to wonder why I'm wasting my time in that scenario. And, let me just say, I have never seen more AMs in this game than I have in the past two weeks - and players don't usually flock to easily countered DPS/healing classes (looking at you DPS DoK/WP).

On that note, a lot of this thread has been talking about how to counter AMs, but its specifically in the situations I just mentioned that there is no guarantee of a counter. And without that counter, the DPS AM just runs roughshod over other classes in a pub setting. It has enough CC (a punt, two detaunts, and two snares, IIRC) to peel most melee, and enough healing output - even if in DPS mode - to survive probably all but the most coordinated of DPS in conjunction with detaunt. Not every class has a detaunt, gap closer, or silence on hand to counter, and good luck trying to get a pug team to help each other with utility abilities.

At the end of the day, I don't think you should let a single class have so much command over a whole area of the game (solo and PUGs). For me the situation is reminiscent of the WL debates, where some would say there were ways to defeat the WL through group play, when the reality for all but the most coordinated players on Destro was obliteration in a KD window and an unkillable tank.

Of course you're welcome to tell me to "get good" and play more in groups, but that still means you're writing off the likely majority of the playerbase who doesn't play RoR too seriously.

3. If AM DPS is not going to be tuned down, there needs to be direct parity in the Shaman DPS tree. I think a large reason this thread is filled with Destro complaining and Order waiving away the concerns is because there is nothing for Order mains to compare their experience to, as Shaman DPS is just lacklustre in comparison. If you're going to make such a powerful damage dealing "pubstomper" spec with Scorching Touch and Radiant Burst - it needs to be two sided.

[Foomy44]

Having finally gotten to try out double speed lazor tactic on DPS shammy, I fully expect us to be near the top of order's "Plz nerf" list soon. Can't believe anyone would try to argue it's not a big single target dps boost, done 3 SCs since patch and I'm fairly certain 100% of the times I've cast it the target has died.

[live4treasure]

Having finally gotten to try out double speed lazor tactic on DPS shammy, I fully expect us to be near the top of order's "Plz nerf" list soon. Can't believe anyone would try to argue it's not a big single target dps boost, done 3 SCs since patch and I'm fairly certain 100% of the times I've cast it the target has died.

No one is arguing against that, what people are arguing is that the boost in damage was needed to make DPS AM an actual spec instead of a meme. In the same way if you nerf DPS DoK damage output it would become a complete meme, unviable anywhere except for pugfarming and solo.