[Pre-Production] White Lion

[nebelwerfer]

Spoiler:

9: Echoing Challenge (mirror Marauder Concussive Jolt. Trained to Stay must be active to be able to use)

You deliver a fierce challenge to your enemies, knocking down all targets 25 feet in front of you for 2 seconds and inflicting 113 damage. [This ability can only be used while in Trained to Stay.]

Bringing back the aoe knockdown that Order has been missing. You cannot Pounce and use this ability because we want to avoid what is effectively a 65ft ranged aoe knockdown.

Why WL 2s when Mara is 3s ?

mara is 2s, it must be atypo

Let's refrain from having a discussion - Dan

[Wiede]

Spoiler:

No balance input, just a reminder:

Plz make slashing blade available at lower levels, 10 or something. Actually it's displayed as lvl30 ability.

Does not follow format for feedback posts. Feel free to edit and remove my spoilers when done. Feedback received - Dan

[Xergon]

Spoiler:

9: Echoing Challenge (mirror Marauder Concussive Jolt. Trained to Stay must be active to be able to use)

Bringing back the aoe knockdown that Order has been missing. You cannot Pounce and use this ability because we want to avoid what is effectively a 65ft ranged aoe knockdown.

Why WL 2s when Mara is 3s ?

mara is 2s, it must be atypo

Ah right, thanks, ye, Mara is outdated at builder... need more destro willing to update

[Acidic]

Context of feedback:
1: do I play class: deleted my WL so don’t play it
2: do I play mirror: WL mirror um no but not sure there is one as such
3: what perspective are the comments aimed at: warband organized but non min/maxed

4: Feedback:
That flat cool down affect will be a huge pain effecting instant casts from an aoe. I suspect that this could be too much and go to the lines of a must have which is typically what is not the way things should go
I would have thought that the power of that tactic should increase the cool down quite significantly and not just add candy. This if given to a Bloack ork would end up adding an extra 20seconds to the 10s cool down.
But overall agree with the post that this will just make the game feel clunky.

The damage calculations do not appear to include the damage output the pet is doing. The pet has to be included in the damage calc not just Mara vs WL player, some +/- player with pet and plater without pet. Just seems to me that the pet damage, utility and player mobility is ignored while handing candy out.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

1 WL with RoB+Concussive Runes = 0 Morale for Destro frontline, even with Morale Tactics.

Does not follow format for feedback posts. Feel free to edit and remove my spoilers when done - Dan

[LemmonHed]

Spoiler:

I am glad The Dev team is taking great care with these adjustments. However was this really the right class to be revamping now ? I don't see it as an under played or under powered class. Also one point i would like to make and its hard to make fair comparisons in WAR and i actually like that . That said, i see the pet is unchanged for WL yet many things have been added to the class to make it arguably more powerful. If this is the case, the pet should never be able to take damage or do damage better then other pets in the game IE squigs. I never understood why the WL got a pet that could actually do something in combat alone and the class was fairly capable without its pet as well. I don't see that being even across the Isle. Just my 2 cents.

Does not follow format for feedback posts. Feel free to edit and remove my spoilers when done - Dan

[Drysill]

1. Do you play the class in question?

r40/rr66 and its my highest rr char

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?

No

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

I play mostly Hunter/Axeman in warbands and some 6-man party. i tried solo some times, but usualy was getting ganked by more enemies

4. Your feedback

I had a long time, if ever, to consider use other abilities besides the 4 core/mainstream ones. Now, abilities like Fey Illusion and Shattering Blow seem tempting (with the relevant tactic), some others too…

AOE tree seems very nice but for WBs only, like most AOE builds, so it seems fair.

What I don’t like is that many nice tactics are mastery tactics and cost mastery points. At rr70 you can get 3/2/0 mastery abilities and only 2 mastery tactics. This means that some abilities will go back into the closet.

Merciless Blows: WLs needed an ability against melee enemies since it doesn’t have disarm. It has KD at AOE tree for 2 sec (instead of 3), so its very hard to have both. Other melee classes have disarm as non-mastery ability.

Thin the Herd: will it stack with Subj Axe’s heal debuff? If not, it remain useless and there is no incentive to get Merciless Blows instead of a 13p Mastery ability in other tree. Its not worth 13p, regardless the axe debuff.

Kurnous Chosen: A very expensive wound debuff. We have to invest a mastey tactic, while mara gets it as ability with double duration.

Survivability: I dont see it anywhere. Its missing from every tree. i understand Woodsman tree is for warbands so we rely on others to keep us alive, but what about solo play. i am sure we can kill a sorc but can we beat mara 1v1? or survive a WE backstab? mara has self-heal and steal-heal tactic. Same with destro tanks. how is solo play supported

Pet: it moves in slow motion. It cannot reach a running enemy. Speed Training and Full Grown should merge and increase strength by 100 and pet's wounds by 50 instead, so we can replace Brute Force

[DanielWinner]

Cough cough

We ask that you present one (1) comment providing your feedback to this draft. If you would like to add more feedback, please edit your original comment, don’t make a new one. This topic will serve less as a discussion and more as a feedback-obtaining exercise, thus the balance team will refrain from responding back to your feedback and simply take it down for consideration. Further, we ask that you not quote any comments unless you’re quoting this original post. In your posts, please follow the template listed here: (viewtopic.php?f=78&t=28604). We ask you follow this template so that we can assess your perspective, how much experience you have with the class or its mirror, etc.

I hope, you get it.

[Mausini]

1. Do you play the class in question?

NerfPlz 40/60 WL

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?

Played Mara on live. Don't know the exact RR anymore

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

I played WL a lot in solo roaming but also organized guild groups and occasionally in warbands. With the last changes I played almost exclusively in Woodmans spec.

4. Your feedback
Hunter and Axeman looks cool in general.

Thin the Herd:
I am really sad about Thin the Herd being outgoing heal again. Thats a major difference to Marauder. I think that outgoing heal debuffs should be on tank classes that do actually have the tankiness to go into the backline and apply it without exploding.

Leonine Frenzy:
Will it actually do the proc every second again or every two seconds? If it is 2 seconds I doubt that it is worth a 13 point ability. In old guardian it was a good 13 point skill because it gave you better posibilitys to apply your cc. etc but without the utility spells that are going to go this skill lost a lot of purpose.

Comparison TTH to TTK:
With TTK gaining a flat 5% crit chance without positioning requirement and procs not gaining extra damage from % damage anymore TTK is vastly superior to TTH. With this changes and Pack Hunting not having a TTH requirement anymore I see zero reason to ever go into TTH stance. The only exception might be that the pet will die in split seconds in TTK. Need to test pet survivability before going into that point again.

Woodsman Changes:
Defeaning Roar:
I am not sure if I get the use of "Defeaning Roar". If TTS converts all damage of Woodman skills to spirit, whats the deal of having a tactic that converts the damage to spirit damage?
If you run a Hunter/Axeman setup you do not want to make ER spirit damage anyway because you do stack WS. Looks like a filler tactic to me.
Because of the missing pet ER will do only half the damage in the AOE tree. Sounds counter intuitive to me. Maybe change the tactic to "ER will do double the damage".

TTS and general thoughts about the Guardian to Woodsman changes:
What TTS does right now as stance bonus is to "fix" the pet survivability in WB environments by forcing you into a loner build. Nothing extra included. Just the added 25% damage to compensate for the missing pet damage and added Spirit damage for the flavor.

This "fix" "only" costs WL his pull, his silence, 50% damage on Echoing Roar, almost all of your burst rotation by making Coordinates Strike worthless, no "Close Bond", no flashing claws.

OK, maybe the pure damage with Spirit Strike makes up for the loose of all these important skills but I doubt so. Especially the pull, silence, Coordinated Strike and the reduced damage of ER in a designated AOE tree will hurt dam hard.

What do WL in Woodsman get in exchange for all that lost skills? TTS does not provide anything else except fixing the broken pet mechanic in zerg situations.

Baiting strike tactic is gone, toughness buff in Guardian is gone, any defensive buff in TTS is missing right now. How should a WL apply his AOE damage while having zero defensive capabilities for doing so? The idea that your change proposal might work in a standard WB staggers me. There is no way that WL as AOE frontliner will work in the proposed form. Please have a second look over the value of all these lost skills and tools and rethink if your proposal includes a proper compensation for all that lost damage and tools. Look especially in the survivability part that is completely missing right now.

As a side note:
- Hack them Down in combination with Whirling Axe is OP'nes in its purest form.
- Full-Grown is still the most useless tactic ever. Please have a second look over it.

EDIT:
I had a little PM discussion and came to my main problem with the proposed changes.
While woodman will fix problems with rve balance it will break WL as a class. The Woodman skilltree and the added swapping mechanic narrowes build pathes. Specing into woodman gives you only hunter as a second skill tree option. Hunter and Axe will never spec into woodman as a sec. tree. This breaks the class from my point of view.

The proposed changes are a brute force solution. The better way would have been to improve Axeman into a proper AOE tree and alter guardian into a pet, debuff, whatever tree.
In the end, there are a lot of WL that do want to play solo and right now you are taking that away completely.

[Tesq]

Very low level wl (rr40+ mara played in wb voice com, play game in all aspect with diff classes tought) but at this point it matter few cuz these changes have few to do with wl.

Tbh i am pretty much disappointed in this i wanna have faith in you (team) but this just gona create more issues at the currently state than those whose gona fix (hence the feedback).

-You indirectly nerf slayer 2h st mastery (where st wounds debuff should stay and be encourage not on wl and aoe kobs is bg counterpart one not the mara...slayer/mara st mastery regarding tools are comparable not wl/mara)

-you indirectly buff slayer aoe for small scale cementing his role by add the wounds debuff so that slayer do not need to spec for it while also give WL a at disposal cd increase on top of cast time increase ...also that 0.5 cd increase.....there is no need to give wl a zealot killing tool, runys are hard too to kill.... and wl is alredy a good at aras caster.

-you indirectly nerf aoe wh aswell cuz no point. In
Bring one of em if wl get all the tool for the wb
Aka: ini debuff, moral drain, high dmg, still 1200 m2. You keep fail to reconize order classes problem and the need to SPREAD tools across classes and not put all eggs in 1 bascket.

-you then procede to bland mirror all mara stuff, idk why you waited so long then to relase this if it was made to be a blanked mirroring exept 4 things
(Not spitting just very confused)

-whoever ever came up with the 50% ignore tactic on the base of the mara armor pen just dosent know how things gona play out litteraly you dont require a wl to know that there is no aoe armot debuff currently and that spammable aoe debuffing 300 spiritual from SM is waybetter than 1-2 of stacking st armor debuff. With a Medium of 600 ress on a damge dealer minus 300, post the cut half it remain 150 with the most favorable of the formula used which is 10% mitigation....no melee spamable skill in game have this end.mitogation pre guard...a simple 10 to 25% would had put this into line. It is pretty fine build wl around do more dmg while mara is more harder but dmg increase came with a greater cost when trading out durability. It is not a 1-1 ratio and certaing bring more dmg dont tag along with also utility. It lost def stuff... ok so it need more off stuff , check ......but have some proportion; also idk maybe order needed more a def melee rather than another off beast. Def potential lost may be an issue.

This will just make a balance process harder on multiple classes instead fix things; yes you may still be able to give order his melee backbone but this will hardly also good impact other classes aswell on both sides. Also wl st masterys didn't require a buff which you are instead trying to provide.....

Spoiler:

Now how fix this, some stuff on mara/and this possible wl mirroring just break the power celling cuz give too much meats to these 2 classes.

The ini debuff instead being mirrored should be removed from both classes since bo/sm can provide stats steal and we/wh have a dedicated one on bullet kisses those should be promoted and thus not mirrored on wl.

The moral drain is present on sm and a bad joke of it on wh....that shoukd be give to wh (removed from sm last changes) so to spread utility across order side not to wl.

Tone down spiritual bypass....

-i have to concede on aoe KD be a direction pure choice regarding his placement but then wh/we still miss stuff.

If You 're going to fix wl BUT not andress order quality concentration problem , this way des side will always be more enjoyable and more easiable.to adapt meta while also balanced than order .....this is a good chance to fix some critical issues in wb building dont let it go to waste please

It is not just bad things tought there are stil some remarkable qol changes such SB ap coat reduction and pet snare lowered to 5 sec finally. I get where you wanna move but you are fixing wl in isolation you need to open wider you view on wh/we where work ia not enough and generaly on order side tools arent spread equally. Feel like you are balancing wl for a 6vs6 and instead 24 vs 24 so that you assume it need more tools to get the spot but when you have 24 ppl you can spread stuff wider instead than a 6vs 6 where you have to concentrate some tools to make the class effective.