Something I noticed on the forums

[carlos]

@Sulorie, wonshot, carlos

That's going to be a pain, as I explained to carlos, to get the WL properly fixed for warband gameplay, except buffing it's aoe damage on the level of an actual guardian spec.

The actual situation is
Marauders have no pet
SH has range damange or can become one with it's pet

SW has no proper aoe to speak off and it's not very clear what to do with it, range or melee, melee or range.
WL has no range and a pet to deal with. And that pet ain't going to be easy to properly give the WL a viable melee aoe spec.

You still seem to miss the point. The new WL will imo be viable for wb-play. The only thing I wanted to point out was that your suggestion to counter the zealot in a funnel, was for a WL to send the pet on it. This wont be viable since the option to play the WL in a wb is to be specced with spirit dmg which demand the pet to not be called forth (hence, no pet to send on the zealot).
I've not claimed anything else.

Right trees
https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... white-lion
https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... osal-class

[Acidic]

@Sulorie, wonshot, carlos

That's going to be a pain, as I explained to carlos, to get the WL properly fixed for warband gameplay, except buffing it's aoe damage on the level of an actual guardian spec.

The actual situation is
Marauders have no pet
SH has range damange or can become one with it's pet

SW has no proper aoe to speak off and it's not very clear what to do with it, range or melee, melee or range.
WL has no range and a pet to deal with. And that pet ain't going to be easy to properly give the WL a viable melee aoe spec.

You still seem to miss the point. The new WL will imo be viable for wb-play. The only thing I wanted to point out was that your suggestion to counter the zealot in a funnel, was for a WL to send the pet on it. This wont be viable since the option to play the WL in a wb is to be specced with spirit dmg which demand the pet to not be called forth (hence, no pet to send on the zealot).
I've not claimed anything else.

Right trees
https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... white-lion
https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... osal-class

Even with these changes the pet can be called, stance swapping is a thing, 5 secs is short in funnel situations and tactic swapping is not unnessasary for tanks who have to prepare for lord tanking. So although not fun ideal things can be done
Ok pet wont have all the toys but still can be a significant tool.

[Nidwin]

@Sulorie, wonshot, carlos

That's going to be a pain, as I explained to carlos, to get the WL properly fixed for warband gameplay, except buffing it's aoe damage on the level of an actual guardian spec.

The actual situation is
Marauders have no pet
SH has range damange or can become one with it's pet

SW has no proper aoe to speak off and it's not very clear what to do with it, range or melee, melee or range.
WL has no range and a pet to deal with. And that pet ain't going to be easy to properly give the WL a viable melee aoe spec.

You still seem to miss the point. The new WL will imo be viable for wb-play. The only thing I wanted to point out was that your suggestion to counter the zealot in a funnel, was for a WL to send the pet on it. This wont be viable since the option to play the WL in a wb is to be specced with spirit dmg which demand the pet to not be called forth.
I've not claimed anything else.

Actual guardian specced WL and future whatever tree with pounce.
Healing Zealots do not funnel and certainly not with WoI as this is guarenteed death. How many dps Zealots are there and how many of them are aoe specced with WoI ?

[carlos]

@Sulorie, wonshot, carlos

That's going to be a pain, as I explained to carlos, to get the WL properly fixed for warband gameplay, except buffing it's aoe damage on the level of an actual guardian spec.

The actual situation is
Marauders have no pet
SH has range damange or can become one with it's pet

SW has no proper aoe to speak off and it's not very clear what to do with it, range or melee, melee or range.
WL has no range and a pet to deal with. And that pet ain't going to be easy to properly give the WL a viable melee aoe spec.

You still seem to miss the point. The new WL will imo be viable for wb-play. The only thing I wanted to point out was that your suggestion to counter the zealot in a funnel, was for a WL to send the pet on it. This wont be viable since the option to play the WL in a wb is to be specced with spirit dmg which demand the pet to not be called forth (hence, no pet to send on the zealot).
I've not claimed anything else.

Right trees
https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... white-lion
https://ror-career-builder.herokuapp.co ... osal-class

Even with these changes the pet can be called, stance swapping is a thing, 5 secs is short in funnel situations and tactic swapping is not unnessasary for tanks who have to prepare for lord tanking. So although not fun ideal things can be done
Ok pet wont have all the toys but still can be a significant tool.

With the suggested cost of 100 AP to change stance - no, it wont.

[wonshot]

And that's the difference between destro, us, and order, you wonshot.
Destro PUG is simple, everything works, because we don't give a damn shizz as long as you follow the wb-leader and aren't AFKing at a BO. We even go for Keep Lords with 1 healer for an entire wb. Does it work, no, do we actually care, no.

As for tools, because PUG wb don't exclude, even the exotics, we may have effectively more tools effectively available in the lakes.

Destro has 2 aoe KD's.
Marauder and Magus

Order has 0 aoe KD
You tell us why you don't have any aoe KD, please ?

That is a massive list you just provided there, let me take a moment to read through it carefully

And to correct you, order does have AoE knockdowns. 60sec cooldown on Engineer's Self-Destruct - And ability that is about as counterproductive as you get them, due to a ranged class not only sacrificing his turret, and there by 40% of his damage from stacks, but it is also close ranged and on a class that is severly underperforming in Warband scale so will not be used.
Also just for the sake of mentioning, we have the mighty Slayer M4 knockdown. But guess what, draining mara is a big reason not to spec this sine you will not get it ready, even with AM moral pump (we tried )

So even if the Engineer and Magus knockdown cooldown was reduced to say 30 or 20sec (a conversation that was held with Aza and i mentioned it would be too powerful to have the knockdown ready on each electromagnet/rift pull garenteed on the same class imho.) it would just make the class even more of a pull-bot, again due to the fact how turretstacks work and the massive buff you lose by not having an active turret in range.

anyways, back to your question that you expect me to answere where as you ignored mine
I dont have any Mythic insight as to why Order didnt have an aoe knockdown on AoR (the game where 6 or 9 sec aoe stagger was thge main cc cant remember the exact duration but think it was 6sec) A version of the game with tools like Resolut defence to predict staggers incoming, fake stagger to bait out RD and adding a whole little minigame it inself. Anyways you want to make me guess I feel, so here is my guess why we dont have aoe knockdown on RoR orderside (yet)

Because Order have overall more damage output compared to destro, and giving Order the strongest form of CC that is not broken upon taking damage would lead to no counterplay and people falling over dead before they can play their classes. That was however when old Flashfire and M2 moral dumps was a thing. If you on the current patch level will die in a 2sec aoe knockdown, you are doing something seriously wrong. It is a strong tool, but only strong enough to put you on the backfood and fight an up hill battle for control afterwards.

oh, and if you expected me to simply answere: "order cant have aoe knockdown on WL because pounce + aoe knockdown would be too strong, I agree but that is also why that would never be available on wL (however SH can jump to order backline and do badgass arguebly same deal)

[Nidwin]

You never kd after a rift/magnet, except newbies.

Funny because WL in guardien kills in 3s any destro squishy, but that's working as intended of course.

If you don't take Engie's in your wb then you have a problem that RoR staff can't fix for you.

This also confirm that if the WL aoe doesn't aoe 3s-shot in aoe mode it's going to be considered epic fail from order side. Clearly.

[Sulorie]

(however SH can jump to order backline and do badgass arguebly same deal)

I have to comment on this one.
The backline has usually not many debuffs to cover Bad Gas, so group cleanse works very well against it.
Slayer cd increaser at frontline reduces pressure and there are much more debuffs flying around to cover it.

[wonshot]

(however SH can jump to order backline and do badgass arguebly same deal)

I have to comment on this one.
The backline has usually not many debuffs to cover Bad Gas, so group cleanse works very well against it.
Slayer cd increaser at frontline reduces pressure and there are much more debuffs flying around to cover it.

For sure! and that is the reason it is staying in, since Order professionel heroes had to make the suggestion making it easier to clense instead of getting rid of the combo.

Topic should be renamed to "Destro bias runs thick" eventhough I am doing my fair share of keeping the stream of tears flowing, the destro pug better knowhow is getting out of hand. (not speficily aimed at this post I quote)

[Acidic]

Think the summary is that order pugs are pugs and those organized bomb warbands are thinking 1dimentionaly that bomb is bomb so we leave the rest of the tool kit behind (min/max) and then cry as soon as thier 1trick setup has an issue.
Not saying there are no issues but the continued direction of equal/ more dps etc is fail, they need to look for things that help the team play and that is not directly dps

[wonshot]

Think the summary is that order pugs are pugs and those organized bomb warbands are thinking 1dimentionaly that bomb is bomb so we leave the rest of the tool kit behind (min/max)

Again, what toolkits are being left behind exactly? Can someone actually name these fantastic tools that is not getting used?