test guard

[hogun]

you will see that parry is indeed may be better at defending against guard damage

it's pretty obvious from the beginning for those who are known as the mechanics of the game,
this does not jump in the eyes of everyone , remenber her viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31038

[Yaliskah]

*Hold the line and jump*

To begin with, and to calm down everyone, we actual 2h guard change not gonna stay in its actual state.
Lot of passionate discussions around this radical test and finally some propositions here and there.

I never hid that I was not a theorycrafter, but these recent exchange point to me some details i didn't knew (and seems lot of ppl don't know too).

When it come to damages from guard, all damages are converted as melee damages. Which mean, even if a BW hit the guarded target, the damage from guard are converted on melee damages. This point heckle me.

Reading guard description of the ability, first line says :

"You defend one of your groupmates and try to take attacks meant for them". Implying, your body becomes his shield you try to intercept damages before he receive them, not "you remove part of damages when it is too late" .

Ofc it is just a description. From original client, and it doesn't mean it is supposed to work like this.

Some have tried to explore the client to try to understand how it was done. before reading further, some hardcore aprt are obviously parts are missing to confirm 100% the general idea, but according the understanding of abilities a guard should have been designed like this :
"When i hit X who is guarded by Y. X and Y take the same attack with 50%, but it will affect Y only if X takes damages."

Ofc, this is not what happening actually, and from some memories, this is not what happened on Live too, and i'm not gonna say the opposite.

Point is, i don't undestand the reasoning behind this sudden damage conversion when we talk about damage from guard, and i wonder what would happen if these attacks were prevserving their nature (basing my argument on description of the ability itself).

On a second point, does it mean that undefendable damages if they are divided (no idea haven't tested) are converted too ?

To summarize (tell me if i mistaken something, maybe forgot dodge here and there):


And if we were taking account of nature of the attack :



Now theory crafters, what would imply this change (admitting 50% guard is reverted)?

(As a reminder, stay cool. We are discussing)

[Nekkma]

This proposed change above would mean that the tanks mitigation should be used as well (if you mean that guard should be the tank intercepting half of the blow/spell).

But most importantly: If it aint broke don’t fix it.

[Ugle]

It would mean overall 2h survivability would go down due to the lack of disrupt/dodge when taking into account the general damage to the tank specifically, which would be somewhat negatable with different allocation of defensive rr points.

All in all a better approach if the context is 2h tanks are overperforming with old guard mechanic, a context I disagree with for the record.

It would probably not achieve much in smallscale context, anyways, as a healer would probably be able to keep both up, and in wb context you should not bring 2h tanks in the first place, so the point would be moot.

Edit: If context is "make snb more desirable in smallscale" then I think penalizing a non-overperforming 2h tank role is the wrong approach, rather make snb specs more viable. Diversity maintained, and snb not being boring as hell to play for most of the tank population.

2cents

[Nekkma]

It would make the difference even bygger in rvr though. Tankwall with crossguarding snb both using htl. Basically cementing the boring moralebombing.

[bloodi]

it's pretty obvious from the beginning for those who are known as the mechanics of the game,

Yeah, not you.

Now theory crafters, what would imply this change (admitting 50% guard is reverted)?

(As a reminder, stay cool. We are discussing)

Okay, first of all and the most important thing, it doesnt matter right now what kind of "damage" its doing, be it undefendable, magical ort physical, is not mitigable, thus, irrelevant. Its however, avoidable, its always melee damage and its always unmitigable.

So, lets say you put in that to "avoid" magic damage from guard you need to disrupt, this wont help SnB in small scale, were magical damage is for the most part, not presetn at all, melee trains dominate 6vs6, however, would make the need of SnB even greater in Orvr, so, what is really the idea behind it? It only excerbates the problems present right now.

Overall, the whole crux of the issue is, why does guard need to be changed? And "well its not logical in how it works" is not a valid answer, its a videogame, has to be fun, thats the most important part.

The current implementation allows for 2h tanks to work, that is why people are so opposed to touch it, it gives diversity to the game, if the cahnges dont allow for both 2h and SnB tanks to perform their role, they are worthless.

[Penril]

The thing is if you take a look at the whole picture, you will see that parry is indeed may be better at defending against guard damage BUT block is better at PvP encounters. So, if parry was changed, then block would be equal at guarding and still better at PvP than parry which would cross the idea of balance among defensive stats.

Parry is better than Block for negating guard damage.

Parry is not better than Block + Parry for negating guard damage.

Parry is not better than Block for negating direct damage on the tank.

Parry is not better than Block + Parry for negating direct damage on the tank.


When you look at the whole picture, Block>>>>Parry.

[rmpl]

Spoiler:

*htl the line and jump*

To begin with, and to calm down everyone, we actual 2h guard change not gonna stay in its actual state.
Lot of passionate discussions around this radical test and finally some propositions here and there.

I never hid that I was not a theorycrafter, but these recent exchange point to me some details i didn't knew (and seems lot of ppl don't know too).

When it come to damages from guard, all damages are converted as melee damages. Which mean, even if a BW hit the guarded target, the damage from guard are converted on melee damages. This point heckle me.

Reading guard description of the ability, first line says :

"You defend one of your groupmates and try to take attacks meant for them". Implying, your body becomes his shield you try to intercept damages before he receive them, not "you remove part of damages when it is too late" .

Ofc it is just a description. From original client, and it doesn't mean it is supposed to work like this.

Some have tried to explore the client to try to understand how it was done. before reading further, some hardcore aprt are obviously parts are missing to confirm 100% the general idea, but according the understanding of abilities a guard should have been designed like this :
"When i hit X who is guarded by Y. X and Y take the same attack with 50%, but it will affect Y only if X takes damages."

Ofc, this is not what happening actually, and from some memories, this is not what happened on Live too, and i'm not gonna say the opposite.

Point is, i don't undestand the reasoning behind this sudden damage conversion when we talk about damage from guard, and i wonder what would happen if these attacks were prevserving their nature (basing my argument on description of the ability itself).

On a second point, does it mean that undefendable damages if they are divided (no idea haven't tested) are converted too ?

To summarize (tell me if i mistaken something, maybe forgot dodge here and there):


And if we were taking account of nature of the attack :



Now theory crafters, what would imply this change (admitting 50% guard is reverted)?

(As a reminder, stay cool. We are discussing)

That's fine and all but I have one simple question: why?

Why do you do this? Why do you want to tinker with the cornerstone of an entire archetype? Why do you think that is a good idea? Why now all of the sudden? What changed? And how do we go back to how things were before.

Honestly, as a long time player I am simply terrified of you. You guys started coming up with those ridiculous ideas which get instantly debunked by the experienced players and you know well there are no arguments in favour for your bizarre changes other than "it's our vision that it should be like that". I mean we had some bad changes here and there on the server but nothing on the scale of what's going on right now and I simply want to know - what is going on? What changed? What happened? What led to this? I'm scared.

I don't mean it in a malicious way or to offend you but people on the dev team right now are far from being good players. Sure, you probably know more than an average joe but you still lack the competitive experience of fighting against actual tryhards and it shows. I don't blame you, most of you are over 30 and don't have the time to spend hours and hours playing this game and I'm grateful for all the things you've done for the server but your blind conviction that you are doing the right thing is just shocking, combined with your attitude towards the so called tryhards that want to give you the needed feedback.

[OldSparky]

T4 Empire/Chaos Epic Quest 2h weapon is gonna be overused with that guard change

But on a more serious note: I cannot get behind this proposed change for one reason - tank who decides to pick up a great weapon is already by default less durable due to loss of a shield (and shield-related uility with it along with the universal avoidance type: block) so he already has to compensate with having alot of utility and being able to chip in that bit more damage to help his group win and control the course of a fight.

Before this extreme change for 2h tanks, when said 2h tank would guard someone he'd have to rely on whatever parry he has to reduce his damage and even then, something like a BW/Sorc would just switch targets and kill the 2h tank with only some effort even with decent defensive gear, offensive-geared 2h tanks in such circumstances have even less survivability for obvious reasons, having to rely even more on parry and healers as well.

Personally I'd rather see Guard change just reverted as 2h tanks are already less durable due to loss of a shield, which is already a massive tradeoff with only compensation being slightly more damage with some utility to it.

Cheers.

[Smellybelly]

I played the original game from closed beta to somewhere around a year before it closed down, and at that point i switched to Starwars the old republic and the combat team from AoR actually switched to SWTOR (starwars) so SWTOR have the exact same combat system with guard, challenge, taunt, dodge and disrupt (wich is called resist instead). So it worked so well that they copied the whole thing and brought it to yet another massive online game.

And the type of dmg from the original attacker didnt matter back in beta, not on live and not in Starwars either. Because it will break the archtype class.
That it vexes you is...a shame, but you need to move on Yali. This is a non-issue that the team have turned into a giant avalanche.

It should be in my opinion, be reverted and SnB should instead be looked at and made more fun.
Dont break what is not broken to begin with.

Though they did change how the tank handled damage taken.
Defence was a Total avoidance value
They brought in Shield as an absorb % to proc the guard (as we do parry and block) but they added an absorb value after that wich determined how much was blocked of that guard value and you could stack it well beyond 50% as we do (if i recall correctly).

Its not the same game overall though so i guess it doesnt matter all that much.