[Dev] White Lion proposal

[Jabba]

I

Pull and then silenced etc in mid air by the lion leaving rdps/healers unable to do anything, a solution to this would be for the lion to be self stunned for like 1.5-2 seconds maybe? after the pull activates, similar in idea to the am/shaman instant res. My thinking on this is that it would give those in mid air time to detaunt or w/e. The stun duration should be low enough that the Lion would have time to get back in range after the stun wears off to add to the damage when the pulled player lands, it would just mean the pulled player isn't so helpless while he's in mid air taking free damage.

This is a more general issue but perhaps it becomes most glaring with guardian WL which have both kd and pull. It is the devs of this servers idea to have you disabled during the pull. On live you could detaunt, use anti cc, morales, pots, even cast heals with casttime while you where airborne. I hate this change as it basically adds another knockdown on a separate immunity timer. A compromise could be to counted as moving while in air which would allow for instant abilities but not casted ones.

Pretty certain you can cast instant casts like detaunt while in mid air from pulls. The reason you can't when a wl pulls you is because the silence, which is tied to the pet, which is able to attack you while you're floating merrily through the air, hits you when you're floating.

[Gatto]

revert FO to pre rr100 patch, crit buff of 20% fo the pet ( it was made an armor debuff to counter rr100 sets armor value)

LF shouldnt crit since is basically the same as Witch brew

Lower the stats scaling from TtK

as Peter said, the problem is not the wl him self, hunte/axeman is fine as it is, the problem is the guardian spec

[hurycanlol]

So i agree with the CS replacing WA, but i would also swap brutal pounce and leonine frenzy to make the kd unavalaible when u spec for coordinate strike.
Both combine CS and BP make it way to ez, to braindead.
Maybe i would also considering removing the cc imun of leonine frenzy which combine with speed training make the pet an unstopable rocket.
However pet sustain is ridiculous (lmao nature's bond ticking at 100, needing up imo cause it's giga useless atm), so i would make it affected back by party heal because it gets focus down to fast even in pug sc for exemple.

[Drysill]

To preface this, we've taken several looks at the class in large format changes, and small format changes, among several different players and proposals

You explain nothing. Is this a robust argument?? ‘several looks’ and ‘different players proposals’ is no argument. Give examples so we can understand and argue in detail.. At least you give the chance through this topic to hear from more different players.. des-only players don’t count, we know what they say all these years already..

Where the WL has a weakness is reliance on a pet. However unlike other pet classes, their pet is also responsible for a large amount of their burst capability and their strongest CC in both a 3s KD, and a 65' range pull.

So a WL has a weakness (reliance on pet) and an advantage(high burst). Seems fair trade to me.
Moreover, you present WL’ strongest CC, a 3s KD and a 65’range pull. Mara has it too in better way as well: a 3s AoE KD and a 65’ range pull. So what is your point?
Killing the pet, a WL lose:
1) 3 out of 4 CC we have: 3s KD, Pull and Silence. We keep snare.
2) Burst from CS and Pack Synergy tactic.
And is near to useless for 15 sec. What other class can have 15sec global CD with little effort (not 1v1 ofc)??
While mara has all his dps + CC all the time.. and you try to penalize the WL for that. You should compensate instead.
Also, pet can be CCed on the way to Fetch, while Mara’ray cant…
Not to mention that Fetch is exploited by most des to avoid pull (I can pm you for info)

The issue this thread will address is the reliable front-loaded burst of the class. As a high mobility, high CC class, additionally having devastating front-loaded burst is what pushes this class over the edge.

Front-loaded burst?? On what perspective? WBs, 6man, solo or scenarios?
WBs: no leader asks for WL in his WB, only SL and BW. Maybe we only have 2 AoE skills and our burst is low after all… pet will insta die if we send it away to Fetch, so its always on passive by our side attacking what we attack. Good thing we can join pug WBs at least.
6v6: enemies can choose to target pet and kill it very fast, as it cant detaunt or be guarded and UI don’t help healers to support it, making WL far less effective. It’s a matter of choice, that we seen on recent 6v6 tournament and 6v6 fights around in general.
Solo: WL can surely kill very fast some targets, but there are some classes that can kill back too.
Scenarios: Top Dps position is changing sc after sc, never always the same class…
Comparing to Mara..
WL has higher: burst, mobility
Mara has higher: sustained dps, AoE dps, Survivability
Higher CC: same
Also, WL is the only mdps out of 6 that is restricted to 2h weapon. All other 5 mdps have Dual Wield. DW is better due to higher % to proc abilities and higher parry. mara vs other dps has +10% parry, WL vs other dps has nothing. No wonder 9 out of 10 slayer/choppa we see out there use DW.
Btw, please consider DW axes for WL, like the keep lord in Eataine.

As a side effect, having a decent AOE at R24 will assist in leveling, which is nice but not important for balance.

Is this some kind of trolling…?? Is this an argument for real??? Is it 1 of these ‘different player proposals’?? someone said ‘nerf WL as long as I have AOE at r24’?? really disappointed
Both options are unacceptable…
White Lion is the Mane Attraction…

[wargrimnir]

Spoiler:

To preface this, we've taken several looks at the class in large format changes, and small format changes, among several different players and proposals

You explain nothing. Is this a robust argument?? ‘several looks’ and ‘different players proposals’ is no argument. Give examples so we can understand and argue in detail.. At least you give the chance through this topic to hear from more different players.. des-only players don’t count, we know what they say all these years already..

Where the WL has a weakness is reliance on a pet. However unlike other pet classes, their pet is also responsible for a large amount of their burst capability and their strongest CC in both a 3s KD, and a 65' range pull.

So a WL has a weakness (reliance on pet) and an advantage(high burst). Seems fair trade to me.
Moreover, you present WL’ strongest CC, a 3s KD and a 65’range pull. Mara has it too in better way as well: a 3s AoE KD and a 65’ range pull. So what is your point?
Killing the pet, a WL lose:
1) 3 out of 4 CC we have: 3s KD, Pull and Silence. We keep snare.
2) Burst from CS and Pack Synergy tactic.
And is near to useless for 15 sec. What other class can have 15sec global CD with little effort (not 1v1 ofc)??
While mara has all his dps + CC all the time.. and you try to penalize the WL for that. You should compensate instead.
Also, pet can be CCed on the way to Fetch, while Mara’ray cant…
Not to mention that Fetch is exploited by most des to avoid pull (I can pm you for info)

The issue this thread will address is the reliable front-loaded burst of the class. As a high mobility, high CC class, additionally having devastating front-loaded burst is what pushes this class over the edge.

Front-loaded burst?? On what perspective? WBs, 6man, solo or scenarios?
WBs: no leader asks for WL in his WB, only SL and BW. Maybe we only have 2 AoE skills and our burst is low after all… pet will insta die if we send it away to Fetch, so its always on passive by our side attacking what we attack. Good thing we can join pug WBs at least.
6v6: enemies can choose to target pet and kill it very fast, as it cant detaunt or be guarded and UI don’t help healers to support it, making WL far less effective. It’s a matter of choice, that we seen on recent 6v6 tournament and 6v6 fights around in general.
Solo: WL can surely kill very fast some targets, but there are some classes that can kill back too.
Scenarios: Top Dps position is changing sc after sc, never always the same class…
Comparing to Mara..
WL has higher: burst, mobility
Mara has higher: sustained dps, AoE dps, Survivability
Higher CC: same
Also, WL is the only mdps out of 6 that is restricted to 2h weapon. All other 5 mdps have Dual Wield. DW is better due to higher % to proc abilities and higher parry. mara vs other dps has +10% parry, WL vs other dps has nothing. No wonder 9 out of 10 slayer/choppa we see out there use DW.
Btw, please consider DW axes for WL, like the keep lord in Eataine.

As a side effect, having a decent AOE at R24 will assist in leveling, which is nice but not important for balance.

Is this some kind of trolling…?? Is this an argument for real??? Is it 1 of these ‘different player proposals’?? someone said ‘nerf WL as long as I have AOE at r24’?? really disappointed
Both options are unacceptable…
White Lion is the Mane Attraction…

This is a pretty good example of poor feedback. I'm not playing games with you in this thread, the community can discuss, and we will reconvene in a couple weeks to let you know what we've gathered from such discussion. If your contribution provides no real solution to the issues we've identified, then it's not going to get much consideration.

[Detangler]

I've never seen any other class gib a target as fast as a white lion. Not slayer, Choppa, WH, anything. If melee squig herder performs the same, then it needs adjusting. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional.

If people are worried that a damage nerf will hurt WL capability, then give some nerfed abilities a self damage/crit buff to compensate for lowering damage on abilities. Less initial damage but more sustained damage. Maybe even drop AP cost a bit too.

Now if detaunt on the pet affected the owner and vice versa, that could make it more tolerable overall. It's the only class that you can't halve their damage as a squishy as their damage is spread out much more between pet/master than SH.

[Unstoppable1776]

Spoiler:

Adapt, Overcome, Dominate

Get post removed for being off-topic immediately after getting access to BDF again. Trying to break records? That's so iconic.

[larsulu]

To preface this, we've taken several looks at the class in large format changes, and small format changes, among several different players and proposals

You explain nothing. Is this a robust argument?? ‘several looks’ and ‘different players proposals’ is no argument. Give examples so we can understand and argue in detail.. At least you give the chance through this topic to hear from more different players.. des-only players don’t count, we know what they say all these years already..

Where the WL has a weakness is reliance on a pet. However unlike other pet classes, their pet is also responsible for a large amount of their burst capability and their strongest CC in both a 3s KD, and a 65' range pull.

So a WL has a weakness (reliance on pet) and an advantage(high burst). Seems fair trade to me.
Moreover, you present WL’ strongest CC, a 3s KD and a 65’range pull. Mara has it too in better way as well: a 3s AoE KD and a 65’ range pull. So what is your point?
Killing the pet, a WL lose:
1) 3 out of 4 CC we have: 3s KD, Pull and Silence. We keep snare.
2) Burst from CS and Pack Synergy tactic.
And is near to useless for 15 sec. What other class can have 15sec global CD with little effort (not 1v1 ofc)??
While mara has all his dps + CC all the time.. and you try to penalize the WL for that. You should compensate instead.
Also, pet can be CCed on the way to Fetch, while Mara’ray cant…
Not to mention that Fetch is exploited by most des to avoid pull (I can pm you for info)

The issue this thread will address is the reliable front-loaded burst of the class. As a high mobility, high CC class, additionally having devastating front-loaded burst is what pushes this class over the edge.

Front-loaded burst?? On what perspective? WBs, 6man, solo or scenarios?
WBs: no leader asks for WL in his WB, only SL and BW. Maybe we only have 2 AoE skills and our burst is low after all… pet will insta die if we send it away to Fetch, so its always on passive by our side attacking what we attack. Good thing we can join pug WBs at least.
6v6: enemies can choose to target pet and kill it very fast, as it cant detaunt or be guarded and UI don’t help healers to support it, making WL far less effective. It’s a matter of choice, that we seen on recent 6v6 tournament and 6v6 fights around in general.
Solo: WL can surely kill very fast some targets, but there are some classes that can kill back too.
Scenarios: Top Dps position is changing sc after sc, never always the same class…
Comparing to Mara..
WL has higher: burst, mobility
Mara has higher: sustained dps, AoE dps, Survivability
Higher CC: same
Also, WL is the only mdps out of 6 that is restricted to 2h weapon. All other 5 mdps have Dual Wield. DW is better due to higher % to proc abilities and higher parry. mara vs other dps has +10% parry, WL vs other dps has nothing. No wonder 9 out of 10 slayer/choppa we see out there use DW.
Btw, please consider DW axes for WL, like the keep lord in Eataine.

As a side effect, having a decent AOE at R24 will assist in leveling, which is nice but not important for balance.

Is this some kind of trolling…?? Is this an argument for real??? Is it 1 of these ‘different player proposals’?? someone said ‘nerf WL as long as I have AOE at r24’?? really disappointed
Both options are unacceptable…
White Lion is the Mane Attraction…

Mara aoe kd is 2 sec. Not 3.
Mara single 100 feet kd is on disrupt.
Mara pull is 2 sec cast time.
So i don’t think Mara cc are better the WL ones.
Wl burst >> Mara burst.

[Tanski]

Spoiler:

These talks frighten me.

[Morf]

I dont believe any of the options would work out, the problem is the pet both in terms of organised 6v6 stuff where it dies instantly and in pug play where the player + pet burst combined with the pet being immune to cc due to leonine frenzy and having a kd and pull + the mobility of pounce means you cannot avoid it.

Imo leonine frenzy needs to be looked at so skilled players can actually CC the pet, brutal pounce should just be removed, you shouldnt have burst, mobility and so much CC on a single class, pet snare and armor debuff should be removed also, no need for what is basically a range uncleansable snare when you have pounce and a pull and finally look into tweaking pack synergy, so in organised play your burst/damage is not screwed without a pet and in pug play your pet isnt critting squishes for like 800, to start with possibly remove the 50% crit damage from the pet and see where that goes or have it boost crit damage by 50% with a pet and less without.