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Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

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Shooshpanzerer
Posts: 64

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#41 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:14 am

S Tier
Aka Best at what they do
Order
Knight, BW, WP.
Destro
Bork

A Tier
Aka core of the warband
Order
SM, RP
Destro
Chosen, Sorc, Mara, DoK, Zealot

B Tier (it will be doubled in other tiers) - you want 1
Engie, Slayer, Choppa, Magus.

C tier
Aka Works in a PUG+
Order
IB, AM, Slayer
Destro
BG, Sham, Choppa, Meatball.

D Tier aka reroll
Order
WL, WH, SW
Destro
WE

A special case - engie and magus. As a damage dealers they shine only in funnels.

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BeautfulToad
Posts: 395

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#42 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:21 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:09 pm

S + A are both the "backbone" of the warband, S is just best of the best, when it comes to picks, IMO.

What BORK brings;

-even more massive wounds potential than any other tank
IB is far tankier than Blorc, dwarf armour buff, 1000 magic protection barrier, self-healing or crazy damage mitigation which presumably allows it to go a bit higher than the 75% toughness mitigation cap(?).

Black orc has some nice tricks but so does every tank in the game. The only thing people identify Blorc specifically brings is basically a bellow (and tree hit combo - which IB also has?) since IB/BG are clearly MUCH better assists, it is hardly a reason for going BO. Blorcs look cool, that is why I tried one, and I suspect that's why most players go them.

As for the guy above sticking slayer, shammies and choppa in a "pug only" list, and a bunch of classes in a reroll category, including Witch Elfs and White Lions. What points are even being made now?

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 402

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#43 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:41 am

Spoiler:
mubbl wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 am
Spoiler:
BeautfulToad wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:23 am
Manatikik wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:23 am
You don't see how UNDEFENDABLE attacks for 20/30 seconds with like 70% Armor Pen with insane burst on ST and AoE is comparable to GtdC then you are insane...
No idea where you got those numbers (eg, rampage lasts 10s). I think slayer is good. But it does not have "insane ST burst", unless the 2handed build has a rotation I dont know about. Get to the choppa literally moves multiple people through the air meaning they cant do anything for 3-5 seconds. That is a top tier ability for a warband.

A lot of lists are just being used to bring up grudges people have with certain classes rather than based on any real analysis.
if you use rapmage in yellow rage it lasts for 20 sec.
order has better heal, so they can sustain slayers better then you can sustain a choppa, even you got a a wounds tactic.
GTDC deals dmg every 2!!!!!! even if you crit for 2k on paper that is not enough dmg. since you have to dived it by 2 to get dps or damage per cd.
GTDC choppa a channeling ability and there for easly countered interuppts -> not relaiable
rampage is relaiable and makes all your skills reliable on demand
its more like 3 sec pull not 5.
order has way better ability based dmg, there for you realy need to care when you spent your cc, cause you will need them when all the gingers come to get you :D
PS. GTDC is a nice chasing ability
If GTDC is a “nice chasing ability” then Rampage is only a “nice versus mdps solo realm hero wanabes ability.” GTDC is a top tier ability that is better than rampage in warband fights.

Slayer is to be dropping everything it has on the backlines. Yes Rampage helps with bypass but Slayer does not have the AP or raw damage to melt through destro tanks with 10k+ wounds. If a Slayer is popping rampage to hit frontlines in WB then that person is wasted space in the warband. The best WB v. WB ability Slayer has is shatter limbs and dropping that on healers is 100% the priority over facerolling the keyboard while standing in front of the tank wall. Rampage is best against DoK to bypass random parrys in the swirling melee of blob v. Blob and I suppose to land some damage on whoever the AoE cap catches but is not nearly as powerful as dest makes it out to be.

GTDC is a pull/interrupt/stun that is excellent at disrupting group heal build ups. Futhermore, it is undefendable and you do not need to build/drop rage to get it like Rampage. Hell, GTDC is even good for pulling melee off your backlines to save your healers. It is a top tier swiss army knife of an ability that has made being anywhere near the frontline a nightmare for Runepriests (who have almost no oh **** CC unlike shaman/AM unless you count aoe knockback which is free immunities). Yes it can be interrupted but in a WB v. WB fight tanks cannot target and interrupt fast enough to stop 4+ choppas from doing it. Additionally, the first pull is near instant so that first one is going to land unless choppa just so happens to click the ability a second before randomly getting punted.

Its time for Destro to admit that GTDC is a class defining ability just as much as Rampage is instead of crying nerf rampage 24/7.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/71) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/35) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/74) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

Samejima
Posts: 42

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#44 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:19 am

Shooshpanzerer wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:14 am
D Tier aka reroll
Order
WL, WH, SW
Destro
WE
Order has more classes without warband viable specs and it's already a noticeable problem. I cringe so hard going into a fort def seeing public WBs that look like this...
Spoiler:
Image


I don't blame people for playing the class they enjoy...but it's hard not to be a little salty knowing that no matter how well you (and they) play, your side is just outclassed.

This disparity will only become more obvious when city sieges are launched. Players of these classes in guild/ally WBs will go in knowing they're putting their friends at a disadvantage, and if they lose there will be cases of arguments/animosity over class choice. Guilds looking to fill empty DPS slots will not want these classes, nor will the more organized pug WBs that emerge, so the leftovers will form hodge-podge WBs with an even higher than usual proportion of these classes, making them essentially auto-losses.

Order has some very strong WB classes but I suspect those will not be enough to carry the realm given current rates of play. That, along with Order's perennial excess of RDPS/lack of tanks and sometimes healers, is going to put the realm at significant disadvantage against Destruction's better archetype ratios, more flexible WB comps and stronger morale game.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 395

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#45 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:02 am

Samejima wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:19 am


Players of these classes in guild/ally WBs will go in knowing they're putting their friends at a disadvantage, and if they lose there will be cases of arguments/animosity over class choice. Guilds looking to fill empty DPS slots will not want these classes, nor will the more organized pug WBs that emerge, so the leftovers will form hodge-podge WBs with an even higher than usual proportion of these classes, making them essentially auto-losses.
This is presumably a big reason why order has a low player count. Hysterical groupthink that says only kotbs can tank and an oddly specific type of warrior priest can heal while complaining there is not enough tanks or healers.

Last time I saw the great VII legion in order they had a 12 man warband. Presumably, a whole bunch of SnB tanks were "not tanky enough", engis are "D tier" or something, and they had only one slot for a dps runepriest, probably the best healer in the game (with zealot).

Since you are quoting shooshpanzerer, you should know orcs run pug warbands, filled with shammies, squigs and choppas. What logic is this? Are they ruining the game for everyone and should be ashamed of themselves? Well, no, they do rather well. And it shows that if you follow orders, stop crying, and use your classes strengths, it does not matter too much what class you go, and more people want to play.
Last edited by BeautfulToad on Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ototo
Posts: 924

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#46 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:15 am

Shooshpanzerer wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:14 am
B Tier (it will be doubled in other tiers) - you want 1
Engie, Slayer, Choppa, Magus.
You need 3 for Pierced Defenses with Engis, just at least 1 with magnet, and 3 Choppas to have a GtdC up all time.
C tier
Aka Works in a PUG+
Order
IB, AM, Slayer
Destro
BG, Sham, Choppa, Meatball.
LoL, just LoL
A special case - engie and magus. As a damage dealers they shine only in funnels.
They will shine in every situation where: The fight is in open field so they can drop damage indiscriminately, the fight is in a narrow passage so the AoE can be focused in a line, and in any fight that develops into a still attrition, in which case they will use the potential of their turrets/demons buffs to the max. Funnels are just a combination of two of them.

You obviously haven't checked the tactics of this class, but you definitely should. I think that you think too low from them, and both classes are incredibly powerful and have a lot of warband tools.
Last edited by Ototo on Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:

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wonshot
Posts: 488

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#47 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:17 am

BeautfulToad wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:02 am
This is presumably a big reason why order has a low player count. Hysterical groupthink that says only kotbs can tank, bright wizard can dps, and warrior priest can heal.

Last time I saw the great VII legion in order they had a 12 man warband. Presumably, a whole bunch of SnB tanks were "not tanky enough", engis are "D tier" or something, and they had only one slot for a dps runepriest, the best healer in the game.

Since you are quoting shooshpanzerer, you should know orcs run pug warbands, filled with shammies, squigs and choppas. What logic is this? Are they ruining the game for everyone and should be ashamed of themselves? Well, no, they do rather well. And it shows that if you follow orders, stop crying, and use your classes strengths, it does not matter too much what class you go, and more people want to play.
I dont disagree with you, but would just like to underline that my lists were made out of a point of MinMaxing, not for roleplaying or playing for fun :)

As for our guild running a 12man, thats just the reality on the server players want to play more casually and their favorit chars, and all the more power to them for doing so! limmiting the recruitment to only the top tier MinMaxing classes is deffo an issue and a constant on-going struggle, so joke on us really for trying to run full meta setup when it infact limmits us more than than it helps us.

PS. Recruitment is open for BWs tanks and healers :P
Bombling BW RR 87 [Thundercats]
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BeautfulToad
Posts: 395

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#48 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:41 am

wonshot wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:17 am


I dont disagree with you, but would just like to underline that my lists were made out of a point of MinMaxing, not for roleplaying or playing for fun :)

As for our guild running a 12man, thats just the reality on the server players want to play more casually and their favorit chars, and all the more power to them for doing so! limmiting the recruitment to only the top tier MinMaxing classes is deffo an issue and a constant on-going struggle, so joke on us really for trying to run full meta setup when it infact limmits us more than than it helps us.

PS. Recruitment is open for BWs tanks and healers :P
It is not really minmaxing, though, certainly for tanks and healers. You'd have to show me evidence that min-max optimisation necessitates only kotbs.

I certainly dont think salvation WPs can carry a warband, a modest bit of burst damage would melt everything. Maybe coordinated Grace WPs could do it if they can cheese sacrifice but no chance with only salvation WPs. Runepriests and Zealots, on the other hand, could probably carry a warband.

It just seems to me to be your opinion as opposed to actual min-max optimisation calculations. You are entitled to that opinion and is fun to discuss.

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Sulorie
Posts: 4336

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#49 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:44 am

BeautfulToad wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:21 am

... or crazy damage mitigation which presumably allows it to go a bit higher than the 75% toughness mitigation cap(?).
This cap is only relevant in edge cases, which virtually never happen. Toughness capped at 1050 does its job just as good as before.

When damage is so low, that linear damage reduction is too efficient, then the hits were not dangerous to begin with.
Dying is no option.

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wonshot
Posts: 488

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#50 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:05 am

BeautfulToad wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:41 am
It is not really minmaxing, though, certainly for tanks and healers. You'd have to show me evidence that min-max optimisation necessitates only kotbs.

I certainly dont think salvation WPs can carry a warband, a modest bit of burst damage would melt everything. Maybe coordinated Grace WPs could do it if they can cheese sacrifice but no chance with only salvation WPs. Runepriests and Zealots, on the other hand, could probably carry a warband.

It just seems to me to be your opinion as opposed to actual min-max optimisation calculations. You are entitled to that opinion and is fun to discuss.
So while my list was not made based on only wanting to run the three S-tier classes on all 3 roles and then call it a day, those classes are S-tier because that is still the very backbone and core of an Order Min/Max warband. I put them S-tier because these classes can be stacked, and mixed. But they remain to be the very root of what you build the comp around while stacking them have little to no downside, in terms of value.
If you allow me to dive abit deeper into the reasoning, id gladly hear counter arguements :)

Warriorpriest is simply just the main healer for roaming 24v24. The fighting is fast pased, the criticalmass is mainly coming from raw DD but also a big portion of dot ticks(group clense <3). Having just óne second on a groupheal while being able to resourcemanage so much easier with Smite on a 24targt aoe cap just makes for a perfect healer. The raw tooltip number of Touch of the Divine is surely lower than any of the AP-healer's 2.5sec groupheal, but with tactics like Exalted Defence (perma procing in 24v24 clashes) you make up for it on your own as a WP. Then add the mentioned mix of a Knight boosting the party with additional 15% from Focused Mending, and add a Runepriest healer as a partner and you will be laughing about the green numbers.

Now would you want to run only two healing WPs in each party, maybe, but probably not(?) But you could! The prayers make for a good duo team with both Righteousness and Devotion active at once, you would miss out on the 25% from Runepriest crit-procs but at faster group recovery makes up for it kinda and gives your warband more mobility before you have to stop manuvering around and have to catcht your break and heal up.

The same arguement goes for both BW and Knight, overstacking these classes might be top tier, but adding a SM partner to the knight gives you more utility to battle some of the Destro tricks such as Cooldownincreaser and allows you to run a DPS runie as WW is a MUST for this to come fully online.

Running full BW/WP/knight warband comp would not be bad, probably be like a top3 of all Min/Max comps tbh. But my personal favorit would be a WP+ RP in each group, 5BW, 1dps runie, 2 slayers for shatterd limbs front & backline, and a knight + SM in each group for statvalue and utility.

MinMaxing on a warband scale is really hard to calculate. I've tried it internally several times with 3v3 player-targetdummy-tests in offzones to get any sort of idea about numbers. So much of these priorities i put, is based on playstyle, utility, and statvalue each carreer bring to the warband or each group, but also in terms of how it plays into what you face from Destro warbands. As an example I WILL garentee you that Prrt (TUP) on his Dpszealot will find any Order Healerstack and start punting them around with Winds of Insanity, just like PnP more often than Not will run a Meatball for the cooldown increaser, and FMJ will have a strong morale draintrain stacked on top of Brugon. Its all about knowing the style of who you face week after week and what tools each of these premade warbands use and how you best put a comp together trying to deal with Destros versatile setups, while being on a realm with super limmited options :roll:
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