DPS DOK NERF

[wargrimnir]

Spoiler:

I sincerily hope you are not balancing based on solo ranked 6v6 ... A good order group has all the tools to make the AoE healdebuff rather irrelevant with RP Blessing of Grungni and the 15% extra healing from kotbs. Imo its an unwarrented nerf aimed just at solo ranked. Meanwhile it large scale, roaming and premade 6v6 specs are nerfed for no apparent reason.

Balance questions are raised in all sorts of formats. 6v6 is not some holy ground to be left untouched. Once might consider the 1v1 formats that WL is strong in to be a point of balance as well, which we've addressed as well. General rules to how we engage in balance have exceptions, and some abilities, or classes, or specs can be exception in specific engagements. How much credence we give to any balance consideration is typically brought into a debate. Either it's appropriate, or not. In the latter, we usually come up with several options to adjust and ideally start with the least amount of shift needed to make the intended change.

This tactic is a 100% chance to apply a 9s 50% healdebuff on-crit. If that's not a pretty amazing tactic on it's own, I'm not sure what is. The intention was to scale back its ability to proc on AOE due in part to the lifting of the AOE cap to 24 targets, combined with the 50' frontal cone from Essence Lash and the potential 150' range on a 30' AOE with Devour Essence. Crits from either of those proccing a 9s 50% healdebuff potentially hitting an entire warband worth of players is incredibly powerful and deserved to be scaled back.

You're only digging yourself into a deeper hole here. Really balancing for 1 v 1?? You do know this game was never and thus isn't balanced for 1 v 1 at all. Not in the least because it has a rock/paper/scissors structure which makes it impossible to balance 1 v 1 anyway. I really don't understand where this is suddenly coming from. You have to balance the game based around the top group setups, whether that is for small scale or large scale. If classes do not belong in either top tier group/warband, they probably need a buff, if they are overperforming in one or either, they might need a nerf depending on the order/destruction balance (example would be BW "overperforming" in large scale on order, but without the strength of the BW, Order would be completely destroyed in terms of Order/Destro balance).

And then you are saying I want 6v6 to be untouched? I don't know how you read that in my post. I basically said making a balance change based on pugs (which 6v6 ranked is) is bad idea, both for small and large scale. You have to balance around properly setup groups or you can just give up balancing all together.

Then onto the actual change and your argumentation. I mean I could leave it at the fact that it is 5 seconds and not 9. Arguing for a change without properly reading the tactic but w/e. The most amazing part is that you are actually arguing it is OP in warband play, when no top tier guild even considers running a dps DoK in their warband setup.

We most certainly do not HAVE to balance around top group setups. Top group setups will adapt to any changes we make, that's why they're the top groups. That doesn't exclude us from making changes based on those setups, which we have in the past. That doesn't EXCLUDE us from making pug changes, or solo changes, or any other changes provided the changes are reasonable in some context, which this one was.

We're not going to give up on balancing, and to be quite honest it doesn't sound like you're going to agree with much, so maybe you should be the one to quit involving yourself in balance discussions. You're certainly not making any good faith arguments here.

The duration of the debuff wasn't a factor really, the area of effect was. But sure, I said the wrong duration. That's fine, I was just trying to give people some explanation of what we were actually looking at and potentially concerned with. Maybe if I were the one that physically went in and made the change it would have been fresher. We decided on the change a week ago.

[zumos2]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Balance questions are raised in all sorts of formats. 6v6 is not some holy ground to be left untouched. Once might consider the 1v1 formats that WL is strong in to be a point of balance as well, which we've addressed as well. General rules to how we engage in balance have exceptions, and some abilities, or classes, or specs can be exception in specific engagements. How much credence we give to any balance consideration is typically brought into a debate. Either it's appropriate, or not. In the latter, we usually come up with several options to adjust and ideally start with the least amount of shift needed to make the intended change.

This tactic is a 100% chance to apply a 9s 50% healdebuff on-crit. If that's not a pretty amazing tactic on it's own, I'm not sure what is. The intention was to scale back its ability to proc on AOE due in part to the lifting of the AOE cap to 24 targets, combined with the 50' frontal cone from Essence Lash and the potential 150' range on a 30' AOE with Devour Essence. Crits from either of those proccing a 9s 50% healdebuff potentially hitting an entire warband worth of players is incredibly powerful and deserved to be scaled back.

You're only digging yourself into a deeper hole here. Really balancing for 1 v 1?? You do know this game was never and thus isn't balanced for 1 v 1 at all. Not in the least because it has a rock/paper/scissors structure which makes it impossible to balance 1 v 1 anyway. I really don't understand where this is suddenly coming from. You have to balance the game based around the top group setups, whether that is for small scale or large scale. If classes do not belong in either top tier group/warband, they probably need a buff, if they are overperforming in one or either, they might need a nerf depending on the order/destruction balance (example would be BW "overperforming" in large scale on order, but without the strength of the BW, Order would be completely destroyed in terms of Order/Destro balance).

And then you are saying I want 6v6 to be untouched? I don't know how you read that in my post. I basically said making a balance change based on pugs (which 6v6 ranked is) is bad idea, both for small and large scale. You have to balance around properly setup groups or you can just give up balancing all together.

Then onto the actual change and your argumentation. I mean I could leave it at the fact that it is 5 seconds and not 9. Arguing for a change without properly reading the tactic but w/e. The most amazing part is that you are actually arguing it is OP in warband play, when no top tier guild even considers running a dps DoK in their warband setup.

We most certainly do not HAVE to balance around top group setups. Top group setups will adapt to any changes we make, that's why they're the top groups. That doesn't exclude us from making changes based on those setups, which we have in the past. That doesn't EXCLUDE us from making pug changes, or solo changes, or any other changes provided the changes are reasonable in some context, which this one was.

We're not going to give up on balancing, and to be quite honest it doesn't sound like you're going to agree with much, so maybe you should be the one to quit involving yourself in balance discussions. You're certainly not making any good faith arguments here.

The duration of the debuff wasn't a factor really, the area of effect was. But sure, I said the wrong duration. That's fine, I was just trying to give people some explanation of what we were actually looking at and potentially concerned with. Maybe if I were the one that physically went in and made the change it would have been fresher. We decided on the change a week ago.

If a top tier player from both small and large scale playing both order and destro isn't gonna agree much with your balancing changes, you have a serious issue. And if you don't understand that you have to balance around well-rounded groups, then I really have no idea why you are even talking in a balance discussion.

[wargrimnir]

Spoiler:

You're only digging yourself into a deeper hole here. Really balancing for 1 v 1?? You do know this game was never and thus isn't balanced for 1 v 1 at all. Not in the least because it has a rock/paper/scissors structure which makes it impossible to balance 1 v 1 anyway. I really don't understand where this is suddenly coming from. You have to balance the game based around the top group setups, whether that is for small scale or large scale. If classes do not belong in either top tier group/warband, they probably need a buff, if they are overperforming in one or either, they might need a nerf depending on the order/destruction balance (example would be BW "overperforming" in large scale on order, but without the strength of the BW, Order would be completely destroyed in terms of Order/Destro balance).

And then you are saying I want 6v6 to be untouched? I don't know how you read that in my post. I basically said making a balance change based on pugs (which 6v6 ranked is) is bad idea, both for small and large scale. You have to balance around properly setup groups or you can just give up balancing all together.

Then onto the actual change and your argumentation. I mean I could leave it at the fact that it is 5 seconds and not 9. Arguing for a change without properly reading the tactic but w/e. The most amazing part is that you are actually arguing it is OP in warband play, when no top tier guild even considers running a dps DoK in their warband setup.

We most certainly do not HAVE to balance around top group setups. Top group setups will adapt to any changes we make, that's why they're the top groups. That doesn't exclude us from making changes based on those setups, which we have in the past. That doesn't EXCLUDE us from making pug changes, or solo changes, or any other changes provided the changes are reasonable in some context, which this one was.

We're not going to give up on balancing, and to be quite honest it doesn't sound like you're going to agree with much, so maybe you should be the one to quit involving yourself in balance discussions. You're certainly not making any good faith arguments here.

The duration of the debuff wasn't a factor really, the area of effect was. But sure, I said the wrong duration. That's fine, I was just trying to give people some explanation of what we were actually looking at and potentially concerned with. Maybe if I were the one that physically went in and made the change it would have been fresher. We decided on the change a week ago.

If a top tier player from both small and large scale playing both order and destro isn't gonna agree much with your balancing changes, you have a serious issue. And if you don't understand that you have to balance around well-rounded groups, then I really have no idea why you are even talking in a balance discussion.

Because I'm one of the leads involved with balance. What exactly are YOU trying to accomplish here? Do you think admonishing me on nit picky BS is going to help you somehow? I'm more than happy to listen to people that want to provide value. You certainly don't seem to be interested in that.

How do you think that works out in the end? Don't be a problem if you want to be involved. Be a solution. Be helpful.

[Secrets]

Just as an FYI, Rune of Nullification and Changer's Touch have been adjusted too for the next patch.

[Aurandilaz]

If you nerf Zealot capability to healdebuff in largescale fights, it will certainly lead to some quite "interesting" outcomes.
Currently, you have wounds buff only on WP, giving +5-15% more HP-pool depending on initial wounds amounts etc.
Then you have WP +20% on own heals, RP +25% on targets healed, KOTB +15% on party, SM +20 on Self option - leading to a situation where a standard warband healer WP will have their heals modifier by 80% if healing a SM. [starting at 1000 heal, up to 1800 heal, debuffed down to 900, real debuff effect -10%]
More standard heals like RP + Kotb combo are "just" at +40% effect [1000 to 1400, debuffed to 700 landing on hdbuffed target, effectively -30% debuff]
Then you factor in Challenge rotations, Bellow rotations, and ability to stack Raking Talons, and the final outcome is heals pumping at high efficiency and tanks reducing at high efficiency - meaning achieving a kill will require some real morale dumping or stacking AoE dps even higher.

Destro lacking WP woundsbuff has lesser EHP, thus dpsRP would be more "lethal" (but barely used anyways, as it requires proper SM WW carry) - and Destro lacks +15% kotb heal increaser on party, same with DoK lagging behind WP healing potential.


Obviously it is up to you to do whatever changes you feel necessary to balance the game, but every action will have a reaction - and assuming Order retains their stacking heal modifiers and wounds buff potential, will certainly be interesting to see warband meta shifts if you decide to nerf zealot hdbuff.

[wonshot]

I can only ecco what Aura said for largescale. Destro as a realm kinda needs an aoe heal debuff to battle the supperior raw Order muscle healing (and smallscale if you manage to get these +healing empire classes into the pug sc)

But an other negativ effect will kinda happen on Order realm if the aoe healdebuff is not appealing enough, then you have a DPS runepriest on the debuffer warbandspot, with no elemental aoe resist debuff, an "adjusted" healdebuff now, and armordebuff is not needed for BW only warband. Basicly leading to stacking one more BW instead of slotting the DPS runie for min-max warband comp.

Fun fact, guess what overrepresented class can aoe healdebuff with full Bloodlord set.

Utility, cc and debuffing too many players needs to be looked at for sure. But are DPS zealot and Runepriests the biggest sinners atm?
Zealot and Runepriest atleast requires synegy between their tank partner (cooldown increaser to make 5sec cooldowns pbaoe spamable) to apply their healdebuff, and not just a solo 150feet delivery service.

[adamthelc]

So will Chosens and Knights aura be changed to be single target also? Or is it somehow exempt because it's only 25%? It is more mindless than any of the others.

I am fine with DoK heal debuff not procing off dots, but removing all AoE HDs across the board is a bit much IMO. However if you are going to start doing it to everything you should do it to everything.

[Xumae]

As a rr76 dps dok i am legitimately fine with this.

[Babanim]

Nerf rp/zealot healdebuffs in wb play because of dps dok healdebuff overperforming in pug 6v6. Yep. Take that you overpowered dps rp/zealots!

[Flavorburst]

This was actually going to go in next week. If we pushed the DB without the code, it would have been not working at all, and Natherul needed to push some unrelated DB fixes.

We're evaluating to see if this is enough to resolve the balance issues with DoKs in 6v6, and if it's not, we'll make further adjustments.

So far, I think it is. Maybe a bit too harsh, we'll re-evaluate.

I sincerily hope you are not balancing based on solo ranked 6v6 ... A good order group has all the tools to make the AoE healdebuff rather irrelevant with RP Blessing of Grungni and the 15% extra healing from kotbs. Imo its an unwarrented nerf aimed just at solo ranked. Meanwhile it large scale, roaming and premade 6v6 specs are nerfed for no apparent reason.

Balance questions are raised in all sorts of formats. 6v6 is not some holy ground to be left untouched. Once might consider the 1v1 formats that WL is strong in to be a point of balance as well, which we've addressed as well. General rules to how we engage in balance have exceptions, and some abilities, or classes, or specs can be exception in specific engagements. How much credence we give to any balance consideration is typically brought into a debate. Either it's appropriate, or not. In the latter, we usually come up with several options to adjust and ideally start with the least amount of shift needed to make the intended change.

This tactic is a 100% chance to apply a 9s 50% healdebuff on-crit. If that's not a pretty amazing tactic on it's own, I'm not sure what is. The intention was to scale back its ability to proc on AOE due in part to the lifting of the AOE cap to 24 targets, combined with the 50' frontal cone from Essence Lash and the potential 150' range on a 30' AOE with Devour Essence. Crits from either of those proccing a 9s 50% healdebuff potentially hitting an entire warband worth of players is incredibly powerful and deserved to be scaled back.

Not for nothing, but you aren't hitting an entire warband of players with DE unless you are planning on upping the cap on the amount of targets it hits past 4.

I think it's reasonable to exempt DE from the nerf due to this cap and also because using DE in creative ways should feel rewarding.