New WE player - can't kill healers?

[Sulorie]

You should seriously talk less about meta and invest more time in your WE.
When you join sc and contribute a lot for the win of your team, then you do fine.
From all your posts and topics I get the impression, that you struggle on WE, while you have more success with other classes. This is ok.

[jokerspsycho]

You should seriously talk less about meta and invest more time in your WE.
When you join sc and contribute a lot for the win of your team, then you do fine.
From all your posts and topics I get the impression, that you struggle on WE, while you have more success with other classes. This is ok.

U should avoid direct questions less ez to see your answer through avoidance.

[heretus]

I have been playing for a few days, prolly will not continue , this server seems to be plagued by exactly the very same issues that plagues the official.

Every single order class seems better than its destro equivelant.

almost all areas are controlled (for the most part) by order.

and the most important , despite the original warhammer premise ("if you like healing click away , go play another game" , etc promotional videos) healers are unkillable godlike tier way above the rest.

IMO : if a pure dps gets to pass the fornt lines and gets to be on the healer, the healer should die , plain and simple.

Currently healers work as tanks as they can be up to 4 vs 1 and still survive, healers ( healing everyone spamming without stop for some reason their AP seems to be endless) and of course as almost the sole reason you win or loose a scenario.

Keep this "healers should not die against 1 dps (something that to me always sounded stupid) keep them able to spam their arses off non stop while tanking 2-4 players EASILY , keep every single order better from just a little bit to a holy **** level and see how this ends up as well.

Having said all the above however : Kudos for bringing up this game and maintaining it , that takes major @@ , and deserves respect, however trying the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of madness, there is a reason why official died (many reasons actually) and they all seem present.

Did you ever thought, for a split second, that you just lack the experience to be able to judge all this? That all this is your personal issue and not a general imbalance, because you only see a small picture due to your lack of game knowledge?
I guess no.

I actually did thought of that , but the thing is I am seeing the exact same pattern I experienced on official , since the first levels into T2 (currently).

during the official I had the time and will to spent and gone through all of (max it level / renown) till we all realized the game was beyond broken , order dominance (due to classes) would not change and healers would require 2+ heavy dps on them just to make a dent , you know how that ended.

Do you believe I have the same time and will to go through all of that again only to realize at max level that it is the same ? 9/10 scenarios order has the top DPS and healing done , engineers absolutely dominate the damage done , more than 2 times that of the top destro despite their ranks (and I GUESS gear) being lower than their destro coutner parts , the vast majority of scenarios has been won by order, those that we win , we either completely dominate them in terms of ranks (and thus gear) or outplay them by a MILE so I hardly thing this is a .... "personal issue and not a general imbalance" , I have screen shots (and I am sure I can gather a few hundreds of them across all tiers if I push my self to go on) where order dominates the damage done not by a little but by double or triple DESPITE their ranks NOT being high (or THAT high)

White lions slay things left and right, WP are as strong as I recall (maybe a tad less) , witch hunters are better than WE,shadow warriors are better than squiqs etc etc.

The only difference I have personally experience is that BW do not absolutely murder everyone, other than that , I see the exact same patterns that killed the game in the first place : Order toons are better (ranging from just a tad to omfg) and healers are way too hard too kill.

People were defending that absolutely ludicrous state of the game back then as well "lol l2p healers are easy to kill , you just do this and that" things that even in theory do not work and I never saw in actual practice (in both sides healers were and are way too hard to kill) , people were stating that "balance is fine" while everyone and their mother was re-rolling order or quitting.

So while it COULD be , I do not think it is my lack of "game knowledge" when the vast majority of time I see the top 10 dps being order (again despite ranks not being high / higher than destro) and 4 people bashing on a healer and hardly killing him , unless you believe that everyone that plays order (like an engineer) is playing 3 times better than destro , 90% of the times.


Despite being called "war" "hammer" and not "healing" "staff" healing was always absurd in the game (even when healing debuffs are applied), since the people that run this revival have put so much effort into this I would highly recommend they consider taking a bold stance and nerfing it across the board so healers can not actually tank / spam heals with the ease they do , maybe even "buff" the HP pools across the board a bit for fights to last a bit longer without having healers immortalize entire groups , I do not know just spit balling.

Have some time on my hands , if I do continue and push through / level up / gear etc and things do change I will gladly admit I was mistaken.

[imperialdeadite]

I have been playing for a few days, prolly will not continue , this server seems to be plagued by exactly the very same issues that plagues the official.

Every single order class seems better than its destro equivelant.

almost all areas are controlled (for the most part) by order.

and the most important , despite the original warhammer premise ("if you like healing click away , go play another game" , etc promotional videos) healers are unkillable godlike tier way above the rest.

IMO : if a pure dps gets to pass the fornt lines and gets to be on the healer, the healer should die , plain and simple.

Currently healers work as tanks as they can be up to 4 vs 1 and still survive, healers ( healing everyone spamming without stop for some reason their AP seems to be endless) and of course as almost the sole reason you win or loose a scenario.

Keep this "healers should not die against 1 dps (something that to me always sounded stupid) keep them able to spam their arses off non stop while tanking 2-4 players EASILY , keep every single order better from just a little bit to a holy **** level and see how this ends up as well.

Having said all the above however : Kudos for bringing up this game and maintaining it , that takes major @@ , and deserves respect, however trying the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of madness, there is a reason why official died (many reasons actually) and they all seem present.

Did you ever thought, for a split second, that you just lack the experience to be able to judge all this? That all this is your personal issue and not a general imbalance, because you only see a small picture due to your lack of game knowledge?
I guess no.

I actually did thought of that , but the thing is I am seeing the exact same pattern I experienced on official , since the first levels into T2 (currently).

during the official I had the time and will to spent and gone through all of (max it level / renown) till we all realized the game was beyond broken , order dominance (due to classes) would not change and healers would require 2+ heavy dps on them just to make a dent , you know how that ended.

Do you believe I have the same time and will to go through all of that again only to realize at max level that it is the same ? 9/10 scenarios order has the top DPS and healing done , engineers absolutely dominate the damage done , more than 2 times that of the top destro despite their ranks (and I GUESS gear) being lower than their destro coutner parts , the vast majority of scenarios has been won by order, those that we win , we either completely dominate them in terms of ranks (and thus gear) or outplay them by a MILE so I hardly thing this is a .... "personal issue and not a general imbalance" , I have screen shots (and I am sure I can gather a few hundreds of them across all tiers if I push my self to go on) where order dominates the damage done not by a little but by double or triple DESPITE their ranks NOT being high (or THAT high)

White lions slay things left and right, WP are as strong as I recall (maybe a tad less) , witch hunters are better than WE,shadow warriors are better than squiqs etc etc.

The only difference I have personally experience is that BW do not absolutely murder everyone, other than that , I see the exact same patterns that killed the game in the first place : Order toons are better (ranging from just a tad to omfg) and healers are way too hard too kill.

People were defending that absolutely ludicrous state of the game back then as well "lol l2p healers are easy to kill , you just do this and that" things that even in theory do not work and I never saw in actual practice (in both sides healers were and are way too hard to kill) , people were stating that "balance is fine" while everyone and their mother was re-rolling order or quitting.

So while it COULD be , I do not think it is my lack of "game knowledge" when the vast majority of time I see the top 10 dps being order (again despite ranks not being high / higher than destro) and 4 people bashing on a healer and hardly killing him , unless you believe that everyone that plays order (like an engineer) is playing 3 times better than destro , 90% of the times.


Despite being called "war" "hammer" and not "healing" "staff" healing was always absurd in the game (even when healing debuffs are applied), since the people that run this revival have put so much effort into this I would highly recommend they consider taking a bold stance and nerfing it across the board so healers can not actually tank / spam heals with the ease they do , maybe even "buff" the HP pools across the board a bit for fights to last a bit longer without having healers immortalize entire groups , I do not know just spit balling.

Have some time on my hands , if I do continue and push through / level up / gear etc and things do change I will gladly admit I was mistaken.

Playing both as a shaman and a witch elf. I honestly think you are mistaken.
My WE kills healers. That is a fact. Do I kill them all the time? No and nobody should expect to. That would be just as ridiculous as what you are suggesting.
My Shaman spends some times just getting killed and little else. Maybe that is because I am just bad at the game. But it could just be the luck of the draw. Since there are other times that I don't die left and right.

Are there players that are just great at playing their healers? Absolutely. I would bet those are the players that you see that you claim "just don't die". But I assure that unless you are just spectating them and doing little else. Then you aren't seeing the times they struggle and die. Or when their healing targets get killed.

More to the point "Despite being called "war" "hammer" and not "healing" "staff" healing was always absurd in the game" is telling me that you are just referencing some old gripes and not taking a clear evaluation of the current state of this game. So...yeah...this is just a thread for you to be griping and not an honest review of the game itself.

[heretus]

"Playing both as a shaman and a witch elf. I honestly think you are mistaken."

Maybe I am , time will tell (if I do actually invest some) as things may change in later renown / levels.

Just stating my opinion that I see the exact same patterns seen before (I notice that in game ,and even in these forums according to others so take this with a grain of salt, that the overtuned / op classes are all order for example ... seen and lived through that already , I have little will to do so again)

Anyhow , thanks for your input

[jokerspsycho]

So while it COULD be , I do not think it is my lack of "game knowledge" when the vast majority of time I see the top 10 dps being order (again despite ranks not being high / higher than destro) and 4 people bashing on a healer and hardly killing him , unless you believe that everyone that plays order (like an engineer) is playing 3 times better than destro , 90% of the times.

As someone that swapped from WE to WH (aesthetic reasons) your luck is just that, luck. I've had games where we have 5 order top damage and 1 destro in there, 5 order top damage and 1 destro at the top of the list, 5 destro at the top of the list and one order and 5 destro at the top and one order above all of them. It is just the luck of the draw bud. Get a premade and it will help a lot.

If 4 people are bashing one one healer you likely:

-Are detaunted
-Might all be challenged dealing less damage
-No one is applying an outgoing heal debuff
-No one is applying an incoming heal debuff
-other healers are free healing the one guy everyone is training
-the people training are all in greens/no talis/underlvl gear and the healer has good gear for his lvl and talis thus making the most out of his bolster.

On my WH there is a world of difference btwn a healer that maximizes bolster, has defensive RR traits, uses detaunt, and cc's vs a healer that tries to out heal me. I normally can't kill the first healer unless I engage when they are about 60-70% and get some crits, even then, if they pot I'm likely not killing them. The second one, I can normally eat.

Edit: also since u said u were new to t2, I'm guessing your lvl 16-24ish? We/wh get much better when u hit 32 so u can get crit trait from right tree. My wh crits for 7-800 torment (agonizing wound) without the crit dmg trait

[jokerspsycho]

that the overtuned / op classes are all order for example

WL are in that category, but ask order and they will say MSH is right there with WL mainly because of their disruption in city.

[quler]

Even at live with 100rr, more than 350 melee power + blb+ KoD, still, chances against decent healer were 50\50 and in present time.... assisting is the key

[sighy]

So while it COULD be , I do not think it is my lack of "game knowledge" when the vast majority of time I see the top 10 dps being order (again despite ranks not being high / higher than destro) and 4 people bashing on a healer and hardly killing him , unless you believe that everyone that plays order (like an engineer) is playing 3 times better than destro , 90% of the times.

As someone that swapped from WE to WH (aesthetic reasons) your luck is just that, luck. I've had games where we have 5 order top damage and 1 destro in there, 5 order top damage and 1 destro at the top of the list, 5 destro at the top of the list and one order and 5 destro at the top and one order above all of them. It is just the luck of the draw bud. Get a premade and it will help a lot.

If 4 people are bashing one one healer you likely:

-Are detaunted
-Might all be challenged dealing less damage
-No one is applying an outgoing heal debuff
-No one is applying an incoming heal debuff
-other healers are free healing the one guy everyone is training
-the people training are all in greens/no talis/underlvl gear and the healer has good gear for his lvl and talis thus making the most out of his bolster.

On my WH there is a world of difference btwn a healer that maximizes bolster, has defensive RR traits, uses detaunt, and cc's vs a healer that tries to out heal me. I normally can't kill the first healer unless I engage when they are about 60-70% and get some crits, even then, if they pot I'm likely not killing them. The second one, I can normally eat.

Edit: also since u said u were new to t2, I'm guessing your lvl 16-24ish? We/wh get much better when u hit 32 so u can get crit trait from right tree. My wh crits for 7-800 torment (agonizing wound) without the crit dmg trait

As someone who plays both Healer and WE. What you describe, in the endgame is an interesting beast to tackle.

A healer, who is good at positioning, kiting and has a defensive spec. (DoK, with armor/wounds talis, in Invader/sov) you're not killind them unless your team commits and even then some other guy with insta rez/focused mind will just get them back up, in a matter of up to 3 seconds, on the other side of the fight.

DoK/WP, with good specs can probably facetank you and your team, with a mere detaunt.

AM can punt/slow you and make you walk through puddles.(not 100% sure if shammy has punt)

RP/Zealot punt you away and run with their instant casts/move casts.


WL/MSH can work around some of that with their no cd pounces(It's own can of worms), but msh lacks the single target damage to really be a threat. CD increasing nuisance? sure, but nothing you couldn't heal through. All heal debuffs/cd increases are also cleansable.


Anyhow what I'm saying is that battle rez is way too easy and has basically no counterplay, if you and your team play around it well. While it is an aspect of skill expression it also makes single target dds basically pointless and is the one thing i would change about healers globally.(As a healer main)

[jokerspsycho]

.
Anyhow what I'm saying is that battle rez is way too easy and has basically no counterplay

I think this is a huge issue as someone coming from other mmo games. This is the only game I can kill someone and they can be up in a few seconds and back in the fight. I was a big wow player for a while and sure there were battle Rez's but it had a cooldown and could only be uses once per combat state even if you had 5 people who could battle rez, they only could use 1 of those 5.

I think there should be a rez sickness so to speak where if u die u must remain dead for 10s next death is 20s then cant be revived. Maybe not exactly as such, but when theres 4 healers in a 12 man and 2 are shield dok/wp aoe healing in the frontline and then u have a rp/zealot razzing those who are dying, it makes for a very long encounter.

But to the main point, yeah well played and geared healer wont die to a dps assuming equal gear to their enemy.