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Ironbreaker warband improvements

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zakgrin
Posts: 46

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#71 » Fri May 22, 2020 2:00 am

CountTalabecland wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:36 pm
In sum on stat point buffs.

Knight Tough buff > than IB

Knight Auru Buff > than IB's one corp resist buff

Knight Str Buff = to IB's two strength buffs that each have other important things attached to them. Yes knight covers the whole party but only MDPS need Str really and IB's Willpower buff is big for healers.

Knight> than IB with other grp buffs like +% healing and actions points etc etc.

IB is going to have to find something other than stat buffs. Maybe grp wide parry by 2-5% parry buff with grudge? Problem is wounds, armor, resists, etc are provided by other staple classes like WP/RP. IB is tanky tank enough for places is non-esports level cities, not sure if more than 1 would be taken in an optimized city wb. Punishing Knock is probably the biggest thing a SnB IB gives towards securing kills on healers. 2h has cave-in but its grp utility isnt much different than the shield knockdown.
The overlapping Knight buffs have the same baseline as IB single target buffs. Whether the actual stat increase is better/worse/equivalent depends on how far the IB/Kotbs go up their respective trees. For instance their Toughness aura is often better because many Knights go up to the 13 point ability (Vigilance) in their middle tree. You are never going to go 13 points up into stone on an IB unless you are doing pve. I don't actually go up any higher than oathbound in my city build. But yeah, regardless their buffs are better because they effect the entire party.

I am merely suggesting some quality of life changes that you'd think wouldn't need to be asked for. AoE damage does not do as much damage per tick as single target damage, and you'd expect the same from AoE buffs. AoE buffs effect 6+ people, but the stat value they improve your character by should almost always be less than an equivalent single target buff (such as Stand Strong! vs Vengeful Strike). So either that requires buffing the baseline of IB/BG single target buffs, or nerfing Kotbs/Chosen Auras.

I agree with the overall sentiment of your post though. Improving the stat values of buffs isn't going to dramatically change the city landscape. Every wb will still bring 4 kotbs at the minimum, and at least 2+ SMs. IBs need their own niche that does not overlap with kotbs auras, and SMs interrupts and WW. There are few things in this post that may get us there but I do not think the devs would ever do it:
- AoE cooldown increaser (tying shield sweep to furious reprisal)
- AoE/Single Target morale stopper (Avenging the debt or Oathstone)
- AoE knockdown, silence, armor debuff, etc.

IBs have always been a single target class, and because of that I don't see the devs implementing it. The only argument we have going for us, is that BGs have strong aoe debuffs.
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hammerhead
Posts: 139

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#72 » Fri May 22, 2020 2:38 am

zakgrin wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:46 pm
Not sure I'm following here.
I’m still saying that it’s not IB, but how they changed the Chosen and his Daemonclaw. There was no reason to destroy the Kobs (except that he could calmly kill WE). There were no more reasons to make Choppa's second counterpart from Chosen. Things are not even in the stats, but in how easy the class has access to these tools. In order to have it all, I need to be in all three tree and have 6 fingers on each hand. This is not to mention that having an alt Sov, you will have lower numbers than Chosen due to the difference armor/resists work.
Yes, IB with a shield is very thick, but how much he is unkillable, as much as he is useless. I know because I have SM as a second tank and see everything in numbers.
Summarize. As a ST dd you will not be in the top, as a buffer you are not needed. The Punishing Knock works in a very limited environment (either a pug scene or 6x6). In the bottom line, the only role in oRVR is a bodyblocker. So my suggestions will not make a significant difference. Just playing will be a little more comfortable.
(\|)o0(|/)

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zakgrin
Posts: 46

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#73 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:43 am

hammerhead wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:38 am
zakgrin wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:46 pm
Not sure I'm following here.
I’m still saying that it’s not IB, but how they changed the Chosen and his Daemonclaw. There was no reason to destroy the Kobs (except that he could calmly kill WE). There were no more reasons to make Choppa's second counterpart from Chosen. Things are not even in the stats, but in how easy the class has access to these tools. In order to have it all, I need to be in all three tree and have 6 fingers on each hand. This is not to mention that having an alt Sov, you will have lower numbers than Chosen due to the difference armor/resists work.
Yes, IB with a shield is very thick, but how much he is unkillable, as much as he is useless. I know because I have SM as a second tank and see everything in numbers.
Summarize. As a ST dd you will not be in the top, as a buffer you are not needed. The Punishing Knock works in a very limited environment (either a pug scene or 6x6). In the bottom line, the only role in oRVR is a bodyblocker. So my suggestions will not make a significant difference. Just playing will be a little more comfortable.
Okay I understand what you are saying now. Yes I agree, buffing raw stat values alone isn't going to change much of anything. We need to find a niche that does not overlap with kotbs/sm tools, are figure out a way to work an IB into it. I honestly do not know what changes need to be made. The stone tree itself is basically a waste right now, so surely they could put something in it to make IBs a bit more viable.
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RORquest
Posts: 25

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#74 » Fri May 22, 2020 5:31 am

hammerhead wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:38 am
zakgrin wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:46 pm
Not sure I'm following here.
the only role in oRVR is a bodyblocker. So my suggestions will not make a significant difference. Just playing will be a little more comfortable.
we can punt every 10secs stun every 10 secs holdtheline/push/funnel aoe slow in orvr use morales just as good as any other tank

its the meta city elitist perfect groups that we have trouble in

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zakgrin
Posts: 46

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#75 » Fri May 22, 2020 6:16 pm

RORquest wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:31 am
hammerhead wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:38 am
zakgrin wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:46 pm
Not sure I'm following here.
the only role in oRVR is a bodyblocker. So my suggestions will not make a significant difference. Just playing will be a little more comfortable.
we can punt every 10secs stun every 10 secs holdtheline/push/funnel aoe slow in orvr use morales just as good as any other tank

its the meta city elitist perfect groups that we have trouble in
Don't get me wrong, punting, KDs, and snares are useful, but outside of that we don't bring anything else to the party besides single target buffs. SMs/Knights can do those things but also have some kind of group utility. Knights can HTL while their passive auras that are generally equivalent to our single target buffs do their thing. SMs get a group bubble, silence + group cooldown decreaser, and aoe interrupt which is huge against choppas, casters, and mSHs. IBs have a single target heal debuff, and 2 really strong buffs in oathbound and ancestors fury, but they are only up for 10s at a time and are single target.

In RvR and city AoE is king and that is precisely why we don't have much of a role currently. The goal of this post is to find a niche role for IBs, and cater the Stone tree (because it is crap) to help fulfill that role.
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kmark101
Posts: 326

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#76 » Fri May 22, 2020 7:20 pm

zakgrin wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:16 pm

In RvR and city AoE is king and that is precisely why we don't have much of a role currently. The goal of this post is to find a niche role for IBs, and cater the Stone tree (because it is crap) to help fulfill that role.

I don't think we need to find a niche role, that's too hard and takes ages. Also why. No other class has niche roles, they just do the same things better. We have all the abilities, they are just not "modern", they are like the first version of any abilities currently in the game and they need some updates. AoE is one of the things, for example even our mirror has a very viable aoe spec with great effects. When you look at the scoreboard of a city siege, it hugely noticeable that ALL destro tanks have 3-4x the damage of most order tanks, except for a few SM (not all, but few). People say its "fluff", but the thing is, they really add up if ALL destro tanks do it vs most order tanks, end result is like 2-3 extra dps worth of damage difference. Hence my latest uggestion about Earthshatter change, since its a candidate for a spammable aoe damage ability thats already in place and every other tank class has one anyway.
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zakgrin
Posts: 46

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#77 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:20 pm

kmark101 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:20 pm
zakgrin wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:16 pm

In RvR and city AoE is king and that is precisely why we don't have much of a role currently. The goal of this post is to find a niche role for IBs, and cater the Stone tree (because it is crap) to help fulfill that role.

I don't think we need to find a niche role, that's too hard and takes ages. Also why. No other class has niche roles, they just do the same things better. We have all the abilities, they are just not "modern", they are like the first version of any abilities currently in the game and they need some updates. AoE is one of the things, for example even our mirror has a very viable aoe spec with great effects. When you look at the scoreboard of a city siege, it hugely noticeable that ALL destro tanks have 3-4x the damage of most order tanks, except for a few SM (not all, but few). People say its "fluff", but the thing is, they really add up if ALL destro tanks do it vs most order tanks, end result is like 2-3 extra dps worth of damage difference. Hence my latest uggestion about Earthshatter change, since its a candidate for a spammable aoe damage ability thats already in place and every other tank class has one anyway.
Yeah I guess the problem I see has to do with IBs class structure since live. IBs have always been a single target (dmb, buff, debuff) class, and I'm not sure the devs will ever break that mold. IBs haven't been touched much at all since this server even launched. SW has the same problem. They have limited options when it comes to AoE, it is in a worse state than IB, and everyone knows it is in a terrible shape including the devs, but no changes have come in a very very long time. I don't know if that is because the devs just do not how to fix it, or don't see the need for any changes.

But yes I get you on the AoE front.

- SMs: Phoenix's Wings (no cooldown), Crushing Advance (10s cooldown), Gusting Wind (10s cooldown)
- Knights: Staggering Impact (30s cooldown), Arcing Swing (10s cooldown that can be paired with crit debuff tactic), All Out Assault (4.5s cooldown), Shining Blade (technically AoE, 10s cooldown), Heaven's Fury (20s cooldown, stagger)
- Blackguard: Crimson Death (10s cooldown), Monstrous Rending (no cooldown), Wave of Scorn (20s cooldown, snare),
- Chosen: Rending Blade (5s cooldown, undefendable), Tooth of Tzeentch (technically AoE, 10s cooldown), Quake (20s cooldown, stagger), Blast Wave (15s cooldown),
- Black Orc: Da Big Un' (no cooldown), Big Swing (no cooldown),

- Ironbreaker: Earthshatter (20s cooldown, snare), Shield Sweep (10s cooldown, hits max of 3 enemies), Rune-Etched Axe (10s cooldown)

Could you go into a little more detail on how low you think the cooldown would go? I feel like if it wasn't also an aoe snare, it would be okay, but a spammable aoe snare would be really really strong. I could see it helping a lot against the destro melee ball, since the only strategy now is just to stay spread, but have a hard time seeing this getting put into the game lol.
Zakgrin - rr8x Ironbreaker
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zakgrin
Posts: 46

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#78 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:11 am

Dono what happened to your post... but felt I should reply anyways

Hey Taladrias! Thanks for the reply. Before I jump into my response, I would like to reiterate that this is not a proposal, it is a gathering of ideas (many of which will be thrown out, whenever I make the actual proposal). The hope is, that by pooling our brains and sharing ideas/feedback, it will spark thoughts that hadn't been thought of before. But I very much appreciate your feedback, as it will be important when drafting the actual proposal. I also would like to note that we are trying to improve IBs warband and specifically city viability (since that is the endgame content). You mention 6v6/small scale in a lot of your comments so I just wanted to make sure you were aware of our goals. Ideally the changes made would have minimal impact to an IBs 6v6 performance, because you probably shouldn't be using a shield for small scale. I will respond to your stuff using a different color :P.
The coloury bits read harsher than they are meant to be.

The general rule of thumb for me:
Spoiler:
  • Get the stuff to work the way it is intended to work.
  • See if the stuff in its working iteration has any applications.
  • See if the stuff in its working iteration is any reliable.
  • If it is not applicable, draft a tame and reasonable concept to replace it with - taking into account the overall state of the game and the class.
  • If it is not reliable, tweak it - taking into account the overall state of the game and the class.
  • Start on the bottom, slowly work up - try not to break things.
I prefer minor changes, preferably with draconic tradeoffs (to temper the rececption among other things) and a slow, methodological escalation. Building a single house whilst it's raining is better than rebuilding a city in nuclear winter. <.<
zakgrin wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:05 am
Problems
  • Every buff/debuff is single target. To spread buffs around you must first switch your oathfriend.
    Oathfirend is not on the GCD, if you have played a healer before you'll have absolutely no issues saturating your group with buffs and also some offshots in other groups.
    Yes Oathfriend does not consume a GCD. I think the response you will get from many of the IBs in this thread is that our best buffs (oathbound and ancestors fury) only have a 10s uptime, meaning you can't keep 100% uptime on 2 players (not including yourself) and expect to do much of anything else such as spreading debuffs around. So with that in mind, the only spreadable buffs you have are VS, GA, SaS, and Inspiring Attack (WaL and Runic Shield have long cooldowns). VS is not that useful to begin with because Toughness is far weaker on this server than on live. If a Knight is running Stand Strong! (which is a waste of an aura imo) then theirs will always be better given that IBs generally don't go that high in the Stone tree (because it is crap). GA can give you a little bump over an armor pot (if you are specced high enough), but is probably a waste of a GCD. SaS is cheap and can be spread around easily, but if there is a need for resists a healer or Knight can cover this better. It is better used as a self buff in conjunction with WaL for giving your main oathfriend AP as you mentioned. Lastly we have inspring attack which is a buff worth spreading around to specific targets. That being said, it plays into another problem which is unique to Oathfriend/Dark Protector. The range for these buffs is a max of 50 feet, which is very short when compared to equivalent Knight/Chosen passive auras (for stat buffs = 100 feet). The strength buff is great for mdps, and the willpower buff is great for healers, but you only have 50 feet to work with, and your healer may be far out of that range in a city situation. Getting closer to apply the buff may put your guard at risk, which is one of your most important jobs as a tank.
  • Many of the Knight aura's (if they choose to run them) are basically equivalent to some IB buffs and have greater range. Most IB buffs go over 50 feet, auras are over 100.
The devs have acknowledged time and time again that the KotBS/Chosen buffbot existence is troublesome.
It is very troublesome, and a huge reason why IB/BG is not that desirable particularly in cities. I'm glad that they have acknowledged it, but that doesn't do much good for us IBs/BGs :).
  • The buffs/debuffs are not strong enough.
    • Oathbound and Ancestory's fury are great but are only up for 10s meaning you can only buff a few at a time
    25% parry and 10% indef. crit, considering grudges are an absolute non-issue outside of soloroam/6v6 I don't quite understand this point. You don't need to keep either of those up 24/7, but on the targets that matter, which works in a largescale environment, too.
    In a wb there are a lot of targets that matter concurrently. With a 10s duration, at best you can have 100% uptime of these two buffs on 2 other players, if you play ABSOLUTELY perfectly. That leaves you very little opportunity to debuff enemy players. Absolutely is in caps because it is extremely hard to play perfectly. The targets that matter the most at any given time may not be close to you, or even in your party. So while Oathfriend doesn't consume a GCD, determining who to buff next takes time, and time is not really on your side in this case. It is not quite as easy as merely looking at a players health bar. So while I understand increasing the duration of these two abilities could cause issues in 6v6, those two buffs in their current state don't warrant bringing more than 1 IB in the city. In a 6v6 situation, IBs best asset is the supplemental damage they can do assisting a dps. A similar idea could be applied here, where the buffs only have an increased duration if you are wearing a shield.
    • Stubborn As Stone (corp), Vengeful Strike (toughness) are no better than Knights aura's which apply to the entire party
    SaS comes with a AA haste which in turn feeds into WnL (that has no ICD, 50% uptime and is among the best AP funnels in the entire game). The VS is a toss, yes, but can still be used to cover valueable buffs.
    Totally agree, SaS and WaL are a great combination, but one you can only use every 20s.
    • Guarded Attack (armor buff) isn't better than an armor pot
    The same as VS, however as it's an armordebuff ~ with exceptions to stacking rules being made left, right and center, there is absolutely no need for more of those.
    GA is an armor buff and doesn't stack with an armor pot. Pretty much everyone in a city is going to be running an armor pot all of the time. Depending on how high you are in the right tree, you may be able to provide a marginal benefit over a pot, but is probably not worth the GCD.
    • Runic shield is a single target shield with the same cooldown as protection of hoeth (group shield)
    The single best bubble to deny Sorc/Magus burst in the entirety of the game. It has an application in largescale, too, albeit it's obviously not as potent as in smallscale.
    I can agree to an extent here. It is very solid in small scale, pretty meh in large scale. The actual absorb itself isn't that much stronger than protection of the hoeth though which is a group shield.
    • Stonebreaker (armor debuff) has not kept up with improved gear stats. With no points specced into Vengeance (dps tree) the armor debuff at 100 Grudges is 800, at 5 points (AF) it is 960, at 15 points (full dps) it is 1280. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't changed since Conqueror was the best gear set in the game. This is not good.
    Another smallscale tool like RS that works just fine if coordinated with demo, as every other tank's inherent armordebuff.
    Agreed, although in a city situation you pretty much are going to never use Demolishing Strike. You are going to be saving up for your m2.
  • There are a ton of terrible tactics/abilities that most IBs will never use. The Path of Stone tree (Tank tree) is the most heavily impacted tree.
    • Ability: Avenging The Debt
    Yes.
    • Ability: Oathstone
    Yes.
    • Ability: Shield Sweep
    Not pretty but workable in conjunction with WnL.
    You are far better off using Rune-Etched Axe for a huge AP pump which has the same cooldown and doesn't cost Grudges. Shield Sweep can easily be parried/blocked.
  • Ability: Guarded Attack
Not pretty but has an application; as above, I don't see a point in saturating the game with more armorbuffs or execptions to stacking rules.
  • Ability: Vengeful Strike
Not pretty but has an application.
  • Tactic: Oath of Vengeance
Yes.
  • Tactic: Told Ya So!
Yes.
  • Tactic: Overprotective
Yes.
[/list]



Potential Improvements
These improvements are in no particular order. Some are marginal improvements, others are bigger buffs. They are categorized based on the ability/tactic/idea they are focused on.

General buff improvements
  • Increase the duration of Oathbound and Ancestory's Fury to 20s and the Grudges cost to 25 so we can have it applied on 2-3 targets at a time, and still have time to do other things such as fire off debuffs. - Zakgrin
As above, Oathfriend is not on the GCD and grudges are a nonissue in largescale - increasing the uptime would do barely anything but serve as an invitation to significantly reduce the potency of the buffs. Things don't come for free and never should.
As I said early, Oathfriend doesn't require a GCD, but picking your next Oathfriend probably will take at least a GCD. While I understand that these buffs are really strong, probably the strongest single target buffs in the game, I don't think having them up on 2+ people in a warband at any given time is game breaking as others have suggested. In 6v6 it would probably turn the tides, but again that can be mitigated by tying the uptime to what weapons you are holding. I don't think an S&B IBs with a 20s AF and Oathbound would replace a 2h IB in 6v6/small scale.
  • Increase the strength of our buffs in general and range through oathfriend to within 100 feet. If they are going to be single target, then they should be substantially better than Knight Aura's that apply to an entire party (and only require you to press W). Strength of a buff can be scaled based on whether or not IB is using 2h or s&b. Buffs performed while wearing a shield should be stronger than 2h buffs. Oathbound and Ancestor's Fury would not be included in this change. - Zakgrin
The logic behind either pruning a class or going bonkers with changes without any regard for smallscale/6v6 to match an abomination of a buffbot escapes me. The scaling of buffs in potency/uptime and application (as in number of targets affected) for VS and GA based on SnB/2h is reasonable, but I'd still be very sceptical as to how that (and pretty much every change) might pan out down the line.
The problem is, we have classes in the Knight/Chosen that can provide equivalent if not better buffs (stat value wise) at 100 feet range currently to their entire party, whether they are wearing a 2h or a shield. That is in the game now... so I don't buy for a second that a improving IBs single target buffs (that requires skill and execution to even apply) is somehow going to throw the game into a state of chaos lol particularly if these buffs scale based on the weapon you are holding. I have probably said this too many times, but VS and GA in their current state are a waste of a GCD. I use them occassionally in city, but I'm not spreading them around willy nilly because I have better things to do. If they were better, then I may, but I don't suspect it would cause calamity given that SMs/Knights/BOs/Chosens already have very strong party wide buffs and IBs would still be required to apply them manually.
  • Make single target IB buffs stack with potions/knights auras/prayers. Gives IB the opportunity to be tactical with who it gives its single target buffs. - Gryyw
I, again, rather not see more armorbuffs (in general). The only buff to which this suggestion should apply is VS, but even then it's hardly worth GCD.
Agreed. At one point I believe these buffs did stack, and that didn't stay in the game for very long.
  • Increase duration of Oathfriend buffs to 20s. - Gryyw
As above.

Avenging The Debt
  • Avenging the debt applies a debuff for some duration, and if the player dies while debuffed, restore X amount of health to yourself and oathfriend. Would require timing and decent skill. - jbrutal
  • Avenging The Debt changed to having a 25% chance to heal yourself and oathfriend for "X" amount OR tie its buffs to lore. If Avenging the Debt is used on a Greenskin it has a 75% chance to heal yourself and your oathfriend OR apply a debuff and if the enemy is killed while having the debuff, they cannot be ressed for 10s. - Gryyw
Ignoring the roleplay bit, the rez bit is beyond troublesome and would have to be made an augmentation accessible via +11pt mastery. The RNG healing bit is whatever.
I tend to agree. Just from a lore angle, I don't think a res debuff fits with an IB. I think it would actually be an interesting application for WH/WEs instead.
  • Grants a buff to you and oathfriend for 10 seconds, and any final blow in that time will heal you and your oathfriend for a significantly larger heal than it does now. - Ostabenny
Literally every (reasonable, accounting for its base damage and the way it interacts with mitigation) change to AtD is welcome, with this one being the least troublesome as it'd simply fix the intended mechanic (considering the current iteration only works in a vaccum).
Agreed. I think this suggestion would be a simple fix. If it was a buff + heal (if heal condition is met) I might actually run it. That being said, if it has a really long cooldown then I probably wouldn't.

Shield Sweep
  • Tie Furious Reprisal tactic to Shield Sweep. This would allow us to hit up to 3 targets with a cooldown increaser, and have it work with our main class mechanic, Grudges. It would also make Shield Sweep useful, as it is an ability that should never be used in its current state. Shield of Reprisal, the current ability it procs off of, requires block. If you are attacking backlines/not in an AoE fire fight, you may not be blocking anything and won't be able to use an ability you wasted a tactic for. Assuming these changes occurred, this tactic should be swapped with Oath of Vengeance. - Zakgrin
Guarddamage generates blocks, blocks enable SoR, FR procs at the end of the kd - or, if the target has immunities, through immunities. Making it about one of the very, very few bits of utilies an SnB IB 'could' bring to smallscale, iirc it isn't cleanseable either. FR in it's current form is among the best tools to <completly> shutdown MDPS pressure and Zealot/DoK healspam. But besides any of this, you essentially want to hand IB a SL equivalent. I don't see how you could justify allowing a Slayer/IB duo with essentially 100% SL uptime to exist.
This is a tactic I always bring in large scale fights, because it is one extra bit of utility. That being said, if you can believe it, a lot of the time I don't have a block ready, even in cities. If you are following your guard to the opponents backline (which is fairly common), you'll probably only be running into healers and casters. You may have blocked on exit of the AoE blob, but you don't have long to use it before that block expires and once you are in the backlines you aren't going to be blocking anything (as healers/casters won't be targeting you or your guard). So while I use FR, I'm really not a fan of needing a block for this tactic to even be useful.

In small scale most IBs are 2h, or probably should be 2h and won't be able to make use of it. FR tied to shield sweep would be nothing like Shatter Limbs as the current cap on the number of targets you can hit is 3 (versus as many players you can hit in 30ft). Also Shield Sweep will be far more likely to get blocked/parried than Shatter Limbs. So even in your 6v6/small scale scenario, you won't be able to have 100% uptime on a cooldown increaser. That being said, I'd be a fan of FR if it stayed with SoR and removed the need for the block component. That would be a small buff, and give IBs a reliable knockdown while s&b.
  • Tie shieldsweep to a tactic that gives us an AoE of one of the following: cooldown increaser, armor debuff, or silence. Furious Reprisal or Oath of Vengeance should be changed to represent this new effect, and should be moved to an appropriate spot in the tree. - Gryyw
Silence would translate to more freemmunities, CD increase as above, armordebuff is a toss considering the warband could just bring an Onslaught engi or a SM with one of the many equivalent proc sets along and keep up an 1k armordebuff almost indefinitely.
Agreed. I also don't think the devs would ever give IBs an aoe armor debuff haha. It would create another weird situation where we have 2 debuffs that provide the same thing (for instance str buff on inspiring attack and AF).
  • Shield sweep does not restore grudges, applies 5 second dot, increases targets chance to be critically hit. Move it into path of stone tree where Oathstone is. - Ramlaen
More crit for a realm that has crit buffs and tactics on almost every single class, and the ability to proc ini debuffs with an engi in conq spamming Blunderbuss?
I think this is a bit of hyperbole but I agree for different reasons. I'd like to solve IBs warband issues without directly mirroring the best parts of BGs.

Shield of Reprisal
  • Shield of Reprisal by default is a cooldown increaser instead of a KD. Furious Reprisal tactic can be freed up for something else. - Ramlaen
I am confused by the wording of this suggestion.
I think what Ramlaen is suggesting, is for the additional utility granted by FR to be a part of SoR by default, which would remove FR from the Stone tree and allow the devs to place a new tactic there.

Oathstone
  • Oathstone is pretty useless at this point. Instead of a damage reflect it could be changed to a status/debuff reflect such as a morale stopper or small damage debuff. - Gryyw
The debuff relfect actually sounds like an interesting mechanic; the morale stopper appears reasonable considering the current morale situation; the damage debuff, well define small - a 13pt mastery ability should come with tangible utility especially if the application is tied to essentially pure unadultered RNG outside of soloroam/super-small smallscale.
Unfortunately I highly doubt the devs would give Order an additional morale pump/drain/stopper because Order is supposed to be better at damage/healing and destro is supposed to have a stronger morale gain. Obviously I don't know what the specifics of this ability would be with this change, but if it works anything like it does now, it would be super strong. Right now Oathstone has a 10s uptime. If I was the IB running this, I'd definitely run Shield Mastery for the 10% block, which would put me over a 40% chance to block. I'd then sit in an area where the most amount of aoe is occurring and profit XD. You would block an absolute **** ton in that 10s, and could probably get it to reflect on all (or a majority) of all the destro dps you are up against. Oathstone would have to be a shorter duration, the morale stopper debuff would have to be short, or it would need to be a channeled ability that can be interrupted. That being said, this would instantly improve IBs warband viability. I think a 5% damage reduction reflect is more likely to get implemented.
  • Change Oathstone so that it is an AOE damage reflect. In a 10 second window, on block, reflects X (based off grudge) amount of to Y nearest players. Would go with lore of IBs being tough, angry dudes that shouldn't be messed with. Depending on how many players it reflected to, consider lowering damage reflected. - Zakgrin
Considering IB's notorious lack of AoE, Oathstone being 13pt and the tree as such almost exclusively being used for PvE (exception being me guarding super-duper glass Slayers in city), this suggestions is one that I'd support.
Yaaaaay!! :D
  • Reflect damage to offensive target instead of blocked attacker. - Ramlaen
Getting an ability to work the way it's intended, outside of a vaccum is also a suggestion I'd support.
  • Extend Oathstones defensive guarantees to your Oath Friend - Nefarian78
This one I'd be worried about, while I would enjoy the functionality I don't see how one could justify both, the parrybuff and BG's ET on the same class. It might make SnB a tiny, tiny bit more appealing in smallscale and 6v6 and would turn the ability into something actually reliable, it comes with a huge investment, mhrm. Let's say I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it.
I will make the same appeal that I did before, but even with this change, it wouldn't be worth using in small scale/6v6. Small scale essentially boils down to a dps race. Sure this would make your oathfriend tougher but you (the IB) will be losing a ton of utility in the damage loss that would occur by bringing a shield. This iteration would be useful in a warband situation where your guard can literally get dropped in a manner of seconds.

Also Oathstone in its current form is basically ET, except ET is better, so IBs already have Oathbound and an ET like ability. ET has the same mechanic, but instead restores AP to everyone in your group. This change just provides additional defensive capabilities to a single member of your group (your oathfriend).


Stonebreaker
  • Stonebreaker - Reduce armor by a % rather than by a flat value. Increasing the flat value would destroy low geared players and squishes, but it has also not kept up with new gear. Changing it to a percentage based on Grudges would not likely require future balancing as new gear sets are added. - Gryyw
That is a change that should probably be rolled out on every single class that has access to an armordebuff. But then again, a burned child dreads the fire, I am not very optimistic as it comes to sweeping changes (regardless of how reasonable they might appear). I can't however support that change if it's exclusive to IBs.
Honestly I think changing Stonebreaker to a % debuff would be a nerf in most cases. I would only be okay with it, if every class with an armor debuff switched from a flat to % debuff.

Furious Reprisal
  • Now makes shield sweep knock down targets for 3 seconds. Order does not have an AoE knockdown. - Ramlaen
I guess you do not account for morales here, but even then, Engis would like to have a word with you. Self-Destruct. (Unrelated: I don't understand why out of the bajillion engis on this server only about four know how to apply it in an organized environment or apply it all in a meaningful way. Same goes for Magi, what are 8x stacks and some pewpew worth compared to a 3s KD that allows your WB to wipe the floor with the opposition, but oh vey...)
No I don't think morales are being counted here. Self-Destruct is pretty hard to use because it is centered around your turret, which is basically immovable... and in a city/wb/RvR situation, if your turret is anywhere close to aoe, its going to get blown up pretty quickly xD, which is part of the reason why Engi/Magus have a hard time in city. I think what the original commenter is reffering to is that Order does not have an aoe KD like the Mara. They're suggestion would just be a weaker version of the Mara aoe KD, where you can only KD 3 players at a time (unless this was to be adjusted by devs).

Oath of Vengeance
  • Applies to all allies within 50ft - Ostabenny
Considering it's VS, well, whatever. But the tactic would still not be worth the slot, not even if VS's potency was increased. So, while it's a tame a suggestion it does basically nothing.
I tend to agree. Unless VS was providing something like a 200+ toughness buff (which will never happen), I would never ever run it.

Told Ya So!
  • Change the Told Ya So! tactic to something useful (not really sure what it should be at this point but love to hear ideas). It is the top tactic in the right tree, and is far far worse than Knight's To Glory Aura at the bottom of their left tree... This tactic would be much more useful and would differentiate itself from To Glory if it procc'd off parry and effected all allies in 20+ feet similar to Oath of Vengeance. - Zakgrin
Yes.

Would love to get feedback as well as hear others' suggestions!
TLDR:
No buff should to any class should ever come for free - I know there have been dozens across the board, but I don't see a point in continuing the trend.
As for the whole endeavour, I'd be very, very, very careful what you wish for in general. While I do absolutely agree that there are abilities and tactics that could use some love, IB is the only class that hasn't lost it's integrity (some class never had any to begin with, Mythic be praised). It plays like a piano, shines in some aspects of the game and does 'okay' in others ~ it's not an abomination like MSH and nor useless by any means.
Keep in mind, any major change to IB (say, any change that's not focused on the dead stuff; AtD, Overprotective, OoV, OS, ...) will likely open a can of worms (as is the case with changes in PvP games, naturally).
I 100% agree, in general, that a buff to one class usually should correspond with a buff to its mirror. There are edge cases, such as SW getting a buff without SH getting one xD... but BG is honestly in similar shape when it comes to wb viability, and they deserve a buff as well. That being said, RoR is not the same game as live. One of the big changes is the endgame, cities. My memory is fuzzy, but the Stone tree was much more useful on live (and being tanky in general), because parts of city essentially required tanking realm bosses while PvPing. That is not the case here. Cities are basically glorified 24v24 organized scenarios, and I think every class deserves to have a place in it because it is endgame. If a class does not have a spot in an organized wb, or has very little spots (such as the IB), the class should get a buff. Just to give you an example, my guild wb only brings 1 IB unless we can't find enough Knights/SMs, and we generally win most of our cities. I think the repurcussions of accidentally or unintentionally making a class OP for a few weeks does not even come close to the repurcussions of leaving classes out of the endgame content altogether. People will leave the game, and it is already happening.
I for one rather keep IB the way it is with minor tweaks (to said plain dead stuff) and see it excell at smallscale, than try and turn it into a swissknife (I know that isn't the intent of the thread, mind you) ~ however, I'll gladly support any suggestion that takes into account balance; doesn't come as blanket buff - i.e.: accounts for tradeoffs, yadayada - or in the form of pruning. Imo, augmentations implemented by tackling the dead stuff might be the safest bet all things considered.
I wouldn't agree that IBs necessarily excel at 6v6, we are definitely good, but not the best. I think the difference though is that those two tank slots can be filled by any tank on the order side. Bringing two IBs in a 6v6 battle probably isn't the most ideal setup, but it is still really strong. On the flip side, if you bring 3-4 IBs to your city warband, you are handicapping yourself and are losing out on loads of really solid utility that is frankly better than anything IBs bring.

My goal is hopefully to get the dead stuff fixed, particularly in the Stone Tree and maybe if possible make it so wbs aren't at a significant disadvantage if you bring more than 1-2+ IBs. Thank you so so much for your comments. They have been some of the more informative and helpful comments in this thread. If you can think of any other suggestions or have additional feedback, please feel free to post another comment. I plan on making a V2 of this thread (that is very toned down from the suggestions in the OP) in suggestions & feedback to get more eyes on it and more suggestions before making a proposal in the balance forums.
Zakgrin - rr8x Ironbreaker
Knights of Order
Ironbreaker Guide - Suggestions and Feedback always welcome!

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Fey
Posts: 496

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#79 » Sat May 23, 2020 7:13 am

IB has 2 aoe snares, one of which can't be cleansed. This along with, Slice Through, gives order tanks an incredible advantage in city fights. Destro has, Wave of Scorn, because no self-respecting BO runs, Big Brawlin', anymore.

IB is one of the strongest classes in the game. The fact that Kotbs and Chosen class mechanics are completely busted is irrelevant. Please realize that in fact the grass is greener on your side. SW needs love way more than IB. You all know this.
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hammerhead
Posts: 139

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#80 » Sat May 23, 2020 9:56 am

Fey wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:13 am
IB has 2 aoe snares, one of which can't be cleansed. This along with, Slice Through, gives order tanks an incredible advantage in city fights. Destro has, Wave of Scorn, because no self-respecting BO runs, Big Brawlin', anymore.

IB is one of the strongest classes in the game. The fact that Kotbs and Chosen class mechanics are completely busted is irrelevant. Please realize that in fact the grass is greener on your side. SW needs love way more than IB. You all know this.
Wave of Scorn which is in the same place where five second knockdown and super long pant. Tell me, when did the BG give the second knock to the Malice tree, all the same with the speed buff and snare, was it OP or not? I think I’m proposing to do the same with Cave-in.
Commenting on fairy tales regarding some kind of mythical advantage makes no sense.
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