Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

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jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#11 » Fri May 29, 2020 6:46 pm

Jahledan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm
Shadowgurke wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:35 pm
Hermik wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:36 pm


I can second all of this as an engi main :) Basically, being so dependent on your turret and being forced to waste one tactics slot on well-oiled machine is the real problem.
#!
The issue is simple: 2/2/2 is dominant and there are too many engis and not enough RDPS slots, and no amount of bitching and whining will fix you lots not playing healers and tanks
Here is the main problem. People trying to make others play what they want you to play. Only these type people are allowed to enjoy this Game. I can see why half the players ( up close to 3500+ daily for abit ) left with this attitude toward others. You suck any fun out of these players.
Ya I'm pretty sure the reason a lot of people left is because there are so many engineers and so little tanks that order cant put together more than 5 2/2/2 WBs for cities at a time, and the 7 engineer yolo ques just get farmed over and over again until they quit. No one enjoys not able to find a group and/or getting farmed for fun.

You can play what you want however you want, but the game is designed around 2/2/2. When you have a class population inbalance at the magnitude Order is having right now, no one can play how they want.
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catholicism198
Posts: 1016

Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#12 » Fri May 29, 2020 11:28 pm

The Engineer and Magi will never have a place in the city because of their lack of mobility and turrets/daemons. You can maybe bring ONE as a pull and ap bot, but that will only work in a 24 and maybe 12 man premade.

Their aoe is too static and limited, and their single target burst rotation takes too long to set up.

Unless they rework the class mechanic, or remove the cast timeor turrets, make it so they don’t get destroyed 1 second after they’re deployed, and give 4 stacks upon creation, they’re going to be stuck in a very niche single-target keep defense snipe role.

The engineer at least had the keg heal before, but it’s a complete joke now. Not only because of the pitiful heal and 2 second cast time, but also because where it is placed when it is created. It looks so stupid now.

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Crumbs
Posts: 158

Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#13 » Sat May 30, 2020 1:13 am

kmark101 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:42 pm
Jahledan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm

Here is the main problem. People trying to make others play what they want you to play. Only these type people are allowed to enjoy this Game. I can see why half the players ( up close to 3500+ daily for abit ) left with this attitude toward others. You suck any fun out of these players.

Noone trying to make others play what they want... he simply stated that the 4562354623564256345632 engineers to the 1-2 dps spot is a bit of an overkill and creates many unhappy faces. It has nothing to do with attitude.
And it has nothing to do about its current state for those who take it to high level play. There could be 3 trillion engis or 3 on the whole server that is not a deciding factor on if the class should receive changes.
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phononHYPE
Posts: 252

Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#14 » Sat May 30, 2020 1:55 am

catholicism198 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 11:28 pm
The Engineer and Magi will never have a place in the city because of their lack of mobility and turrets/daemons. ...
Just about every class can get tactic starved, that is part of the prep of a group, and for cities you better prep. Nothing says "we're Dumped" like having a magus/eni sit in back doing nothing as they wait to get out of combat to change tactics, or a tank do the same to remove Menace.

On this note, with the recent change to 'fix' the extra tactic bar slots (by removing a bunch) they left in an extra tactic slot, which gives me hope we will have more stuff to fill it later on.
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Kwatchi
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Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#15 » Sat May 30, 2020 4:25 am

Jahledan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm
Here is the main problem. People trying to make others play what they want you to play. Only these type people are allowed to enjoy this Game. I can see why half the players ( up close to 3500+ daily for abit ) left with this attitude toward others. You suck any fun out of these players.
It is a cruel supply and demand issue atm for Engineers- little to no demand and over supply. You are welcome to play whatever you enjoy the most, including solo pug cities, but you can't expect organized groups to accommodate 1 to the detriment of the other 23.

It is not that we don't want the player, it is simply that class does not work well in the City environment.

I faced the same dilemma with my AM. Re-roll or quit. I re-rolled. You have to decide if you enjoy the game enough to do the same.
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catholicism198
Posts: 1016

Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#16 » Sat May 30, 2020 8:54 am

Kwatchi wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 4:25 am
Jahledan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm
Here is the main problem. People trying to make others play what they want you to play. Only these type people are allowed to enjoy this Game. I can see why half the players ( up close to 3500+ daily for abit ) left with this attitude toward others. You suck any fun out of these players.
It is a cruel supply and demand issue atm for Engineers- little to no demand and over supply. You are welcome to play whatever you enjoy the most, including solo pug cities, but you can't expect organized groups to accommodate 1 to the detriment of the other 23.

It is not that we don't want the player, it is simply that class does not work well in the City environment.

I faced the same dilemma with my AM. Re-roll or quit. I re-rolled. You have to decide if you enjoy the game enough to do the same.
Nah, better to just get farmed, get the gear you want, and never queue for that mess again.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2096

Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#17 » Sat May 30, 2020 9:05 am

Powerhouse in forts/keeps, subpar in city and average in roam/skirm, gank/solo.

You cant have it all and the biggest issue is the class being overpopulated bc it is quite potent after buffs.

BWs being overpop aswell makes this worse since BWs are better in most settings.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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catholicism198
Posts: 1016

Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#18 » Sat May 30, 2020 9:46 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:05 am
Powerhouse in forts/keeps, subpar in city and average in roam/skirm, gank/solo.

You cant have it all and the biggest issue is the class being overpopulated bc it is quite potent after buffs.

BWs being overpop aswell makes this worse since BWs are better in most settings.
Just because they’re better than most, during KEEP DEFENSES, does not mean they should be excluded from the only viable way to get end-game gear.
The system is heavily flawed and they know it.
End game gear should have NEVER been locked behind a mini-game that disproportionately favors melee trains, and melee sorcs/bws.

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wonshot
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Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#19 » Sun May 31, 2020 12:27 am

In terms of the class + mirror,
I truely belive the classmechanic is what is holding the career down. The turret have waaay too many goodies tied to it. And dies waaaay too easily. Some Magus/Engineers will find sneaky spots for each fighting area to hide their turrets around corners and still get their stacks. But that just paints the picture of how immobile the class is, restricting it be in certain areas or overly focus on keeping the pet in range while trying to read a battle, when to prekite, when to control, when to burst. No other mechanic really demands this sort of attention from you. Sure IB/BG might come close but the difference in an engineer with stacks and one without is Massive!

As for the engineer vs the magus,
Most engineers who get invited into 2-2-2 and escape the pug-hell are adapting into a more utility role. Magnet being one second slower than Magus rift, half of the ability arsenal being corp/psyical, giving up your class mechanic stacks for applying a ghetto meleerange pbaoe knockdown and fully forfeit being a "real damagedealer" in an attempt on giving Order an aoe knockdown to setup moraledrops or even prevent them for the cost of 1-2 tactics and yet the turret still explodes before 2GCD in a deathball fight :roll:
Magus being able to snare and prekite with Firestorm, while Engineer is stuck in place during a P.Shells channel is an other reason engi is falling behind in terms of damage+utility role.

Overpopulation of Engineers,
That IS a thing on Order. And I hate to say this, but the quality of the engineers I've seen on my time on RoR is shocking. And allow me to elaborate on that comment. Sure alot of the engineers who have trialed and tried to apply to the orvr guilds on order on an engineer spot have had good, heck even amazing, career knowledge. But straight up terrible awareness or ability to read a battle. And that is the main issue why most warbands for city just dont want a single engineer. The highest rank engineers on the server know their turret mechanic and bonuses in their sleep, but then have no clue how to control a battlefield with their tools and be a "control mage" type of role. The engineer/magus toolbox is massive with control, debuff and utility tools. Yet most engineers only understand how to stand out of Detaunt range with Snipe, with no concept of pre-kiting, debuffing the target(s) who are getting focused while interrupting or stopping the backline and controling an income flank attack. Its like the Bitterstone Uniform came with Blinkers (for a horse) on, with how deep the tunnelvision is for the most engineers ive seen on RoR.

On top of my head I cant think of just THREE decent control engineers who would be worth a DPS spot in City, partly down to their classmechanic being too easy to shutdown, but also down to lack of the above.

Giving the career + mirror a "loner" tactic where they just get "X"% damage and able to cast their version of Self-Destruct around them with no turret, but unable to get the amazing bonuses for each of the turret options like armordebuff, range, disrupt, dotduration, targetlimmit extention etc etc. Would maybe allow them to perform on a DPS role and not just a utility role. So its a tradeoff option to run with or without the pet turret.
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adapter
Posts: 331

Re: Fate of Engineer in City Sieges and Ranked Scenario

Post#20 » Sun May 31, 2020 2:17 am

TiberiusD wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 7:02 am

What do you think it needs to change so that Engineer would find a spot in META?
Nothing, Engineers just have to spec into the right AoE Spec for city, i've seen many Engis be top damage in lots of cities, but only a few, because some others just go in with a random spec, not one meant for City, so that is my opinion about it.

Engis need to spec for AoE instead of going single targets

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