City Winner History?

[TreefAM]

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Well, yes from the complete PUG organised WB standpoint, we have us RoA alliance folks (Aillune, Beastz, Toymachine plus occasional overflow leaders), Graffer and then guild WBs who are looking to fill up their ranks with people they at least know like when CNTK, Bene, LbL look for people on region or /t4. That said I don't usually push it past 2 in the morning CEST, so NA folks also might have some other leaders.
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Out of the guild mentioned I think it's only Cature that does Orvr outside of guild events, but you don't see CNTK or LbL on every night fighting in the lakes, you see the semi organized pugs like Beastz. I run 12-18 mans with discord more or less every night and often the only fights we get are Beastz or those from his guild, occasionally Cature and we used to see Tilean Warlords up and about as well until like a month ago (did something happen to that guild), CNTK, Bombling/Rolgrom or FUREUR are not that common of a sight.

[Ramlaen]

2. Can re-roll from underdesired classes into underplayed but desired classes. If 50% of the BWs and Engineers on Orders rerolled into tanks, Order would probably be in a much better state as far as class distribution

More Order would roll tanks if Order tanks were on par with their Destro equivalent.

Think about this for a second, Destro players often insist KOBS are the best tank in the game for reasons like Focused Mending, the tactic that adds a 15% heal buff to one of their auras.

The thing is this aura is the counter to a Chosen's 25% heal debuff aura. Except they don't actually cancel each other out, because the Chosen is still debuffing heals due to the higher value of his debuff.

So again think about this, the ability that makes KOBS 'overpowered' or 'the best tank in the game' is overmatched by its mirror classes equivalent ability.

And it gets better, it takes 4 KOBS to give a warband their aura but only a single Chosen to debuff that warband with its aura. A single Chosen can overpower four KOBS despite the KOBS supposedly being OP.

This is without addressing other aspects like that Chosen have a KOBS utility while still being able to do good damage for a tank or that they can pump their own morales.

[Foofmonger]

DEVS:
1. Underperforming classes could use buffs to be city viable.
2. End-game progression shouldn't be locked to just cities.

Players:
1. Can work on overall organization/alliances/guilds on the Order side. Seems fragmented and like it needs consolidation and more massive 10 guild alliances (as Destro does).
2. Can re-roll from underdesired classes into underplayed but desired classes. If 50% of the BWs and Engineers on Orders rerolled into tanks, Order would probably be in a much better state as far as class distribution.

Completely agree there, on all points. But I also don't think it's gonna be something solved any time soon. We're in summer time and that's always rough couple of months for MMOs and this is a pretty big change for both the Devs and Order. It needs to happen though, don't get me wrong.

DEVS - I think devs really need to look at the campaign itself and the endgame progression and I think there could be a ton of little "utility" changes to some of the less desirable classes.

Players - People honestly need to get more together, 100% there. Bigger guilds, bigger alliances, less running of 12-mans and hoping you don't get "bad classes" added to you, less doing everything in guild if you're not a big guild, etc. The re-roll thing is slowly happening, we're having a lot of folks who rolled engis, BWs and SWs after the rework in particular looking more into support classes. But people are stubborn and will often just quit when they class they love is not viable in the endgame or it gets nerfed for whatever reason. The SW thing in particular was very rough. And issue with Engis, BWs, SWs, etc are that those were always historicaly iconic and loved Warhammer classes/archetypes so new people will roll them no matter what.

Agreed. On the player front, ultimately I think what's important is that Order players focus on winning their own cities. You don't have to try and solve the world problems, but every-time we replace an order pug/uncoordinated group with a premade/coordinated group, that will help the city win rates. That's the amount of change we can affect as individual players. And honestly, people care about their own experiences, if you win a city you're going to be happy, regardless if other people lose theirs. That's the way to make progress incrementally here instead of trying to just think it's all gonna be solved overnight.

[Foofmonger]

2. Can re-roll from underdesired classes into underplayed but desired classes. If 50% of the BWs and Engineers on Orders rerolled into tanks, Order would probably be in a much better state as far as class distribution

More Order would roll tanks if Order tanks were on par with their Destro equivalent.

Think about this for a second, Destro players usually insist KOBS are the best tank in the game due to Focused Mending, the tactic that adds a 15% heal buff to one of their auras.

But this ability is the counter to a Chosen's 25% heal debuff aura. Except they don't actually cancel each other out, because the Chosen is still debuffing heals due to the higher value of his debuff.

So again think about this, the ability that makes KOBS 'overpowered' or 'the best tank in the game' is overmatched by its mirror classes equivalent ability.

And it gets better, it takes 4 KOBS to give a warband their aura but only a single Chosen to debuff that warband with its aura.

A single Chosen can overpower four KOBS despite the KOBS supposedly being OP.

And this is without addressing that Chosen have a KOBS utility while still being able to do good damage for a tank.

This is just not a comprehensive or accurate way to look at the game unfortunately. Nor do I agree with your premise, KOTBS and SM are great classes and compare well to their counterparts. IB and BG have some issues, of which IB comes out the loser and BG is slightly more viable.

Anyway, to specifically talk about your comment:

Order tends to sit at roughly 135% healing (exalted defenses and focus mending). So the Chosen debuff, realistically only puts Order back to about 110%. Also, it doesn't stack with other healing debuffs, meaning that when you apply a 50% healing debuff to a target on Destro, it's only netting you an additional 25% reduction. You're also not mentioning that WHs, and Knights, and WLs with Invader Axe proc all have AoE outgoing healdebuffs, (with the kotbs and WL at 25%, and the WH at 50%).

So, add this all together, in a best case scenario; Order is doing 135% increase healing. Destro is doing 0% increased healing. Destro is reducing AoE incoming healing by 25%, and single target incoming healing by 25%, destro can also single target outgoing healing debuff for an additional 50%. Order is reducing AoE outgoing by 25-50% (depends on which they are running), and then running 50% incoming single targets.

So Order AoE healing: Roughly 110% of normal value.
Order ST healing (assuming best case scenario for destro where incoming and outgoing 50% debuffs are on a target): Roughly 34% of normal value.

Destro AoE healing: Roughly 75-50% of normal value (depends on outgoing debuff).
Destro ST healing: (assuming best case scenario for order): Roughly 12.5%-18.75% of normal value.

So because you aren't looking at the full picture of what the realms are capable of, you are coming to an incorrect conclusion by just comparing 2 classes and not looking holistically at what the realms are capable of when they coordinate.

[Ramlaen]

Order tends to sit at roughly 135% healing (exalted defenses and focus mending).

Just to put this in perspective here for the peanut gallery, Foofmonger is justifying the effect of a single Chosen with something that takes 12 characters in an Order warband to achieve (and at the sacrafice of RP utility).

And that is if you pretend your 8 WP have an off defense buff up constantly.

[tefnaht]

Spoiler:

If stacking SW's WH's IB's AM's was as viable as stacking other classes like kotbs-wp-bw-WL-SL these people could form their own warbands and not feel useless and will win more instances than they were previously(pugging and losing %100) if you take 4 engi 2sw 2wh as your dps right now you are going to lose it against pug 2-2-2 anyway which leads to people to solo que

Unfortunately that would require basically a full rework of the game. Every class should have a niche a purpose, and a role in cities. However, to make things like Engies/Maguses as viable as Sorcs/BWs is probably more about nerfing Sorcs/BWs than it is about buffing Engineers/Magi. Same goes for Chosen/KoTBS in relation to BG/IB. Some of these classes are just more viable by design, and it's very difficult to balance in relation to one another. If you buff other RDPS damage up to Sorc/BW levels, this makes the Sorc/BW no longer "as viable", as those other classes aren't as squishy and have a variety of utility/cc that the sorc/bw doesn't get. For BG/IB, trying to buff them up to Chosen/KOTBS levels... how are you going to make it so that a single target buffer/debuffer is viable in comparison to an AoE one? The reality is you can't just boost the IB/BG to be so strong on a single target that they are better picks than Chosen/KoTBS because they would be incredibly OP and broken.

I don't see that happening honestly. Looks like the devs philosophy is more one of 'every class should have a viable role in cities", but not "every class can fulfill the same spots in a wb", no matter what you do to an IB for example, the chance that you don't want 4 KoTBS in a city WB seems slim to none.

Than the only solution left is making end game gear available on other aspects of the game where every class can find its spot(it all depends on if you see a problem with the way best gear acquired or not)

It starts from invader tokens - forts is not frequently happens, have people limit and give 4-6 tokens(and 24 bugs that basically goes to players in inv/warl/sov and i don't know they have set pieces or just tokens) and 12-man pug afk 2 star city give 6-18 tokens, non-meta WH needs 340 tokens if buy all items - with no pug city it's about 57-85 fort sieges - 1 pug 12-man city counts ~2-3 fort sieges. City give more benefits, easier to snipe and do not require contribution for reward - valuable offer, and who cares about ruin other people run - that people equals poor WH with a garbage 5 minutes ago or just ignore him when he asks to party.

System with personal drop with acc chances on forts, like in zones, inv pieces in bags (purple\gold).
Convert low tokens to high by 5 to 1, full sov - 419 sov - 2095 inv - 10475 vanq - 52375 conq - 261875 officer coins, if numbers looks low return warlord tokens. Don't give break sov\inv tokens with any trade price.
1* - 1 inv for stage win, 2* - 2 inv for stage win, 3* - 1 sov for stage win, 4* - 2 sov for stage win, 5* - 3 sov for stage win. Bags keeps give sov. No bags for lose side. Lose side receive for stage 1 vanq for 1*, 2* and 1 inv for 3*, 4*, 5*. Mirror must filled to 24 vs 24.

P.S. on pug city siege always see few players with a half\near full sov gear on "meta"\near "meta" classes...

[teiloh]

This is just not a comprehensive or accurate way to look at the game unfortunately. Nor do I agree with your premise, KOTBS and SM are great classes and compare well to their counterparts. IB and BG have some issues, of which IB comes out the loser and BG is slightly more viable.

SM CD reducer is vastly inferior to the new one added to BOs (which should be removed from the game), as well as the needlessly-buffed Chop Fasta. This is a HUGE deal for builds/rotations.

And not every WP has Exalted Defenses up all the time, and having +15% heals from the Knight requires you to essentially waste an Aura slot and use up 4 tactic slots across 4 Knights.

DOKs and Chosens don't have access to healing output in this specific form, but DOKs can easily slot something that raises SE regen/defenses so that their throughput equalizes. This is is why you don't see much of a difference in the healing numbers - in fact, DOKs usually do more healed/second because of realm/class synergies.

WP can't spam MB every 8 seconds like a DoK can, for instance, because they don't have practically 80-100% uptime on their CD reducer. Nor can they wipe out all of the enemy's strongest DoTs/debuffs with a single M2, including heal debuffs.

[Detangler]

1. oRvR favors rdps when sieging.

2. City favors mdps due to close quarters.

3. Order has too many rdps due to player choice.

4. Order has too little tanks.

5. Destro has one more WB viable meta pick (mSH) compared to Order mirror (SW)

6. As foofmonger eloquently explained earlier, this class dispersion disparity desperately puts more Order instances in inefficient imbalanced warbands than Destro. 2 2 2 v 1 3 1 will be an easy win - that's just how the game is balanced. (Do i get bonus poster points for all the alliterations? )

7. Constantly finding yourself in imbalanced fights leads more players to just say eff it and queue solo on their rdps classes, further snowballing the effect.

Whats the solution? Give Order a buff to a class to make it more warband viable (SW). Convince more Order players to roll tanks and shelve their useless engineers when cities are up.

[wonshot]

Since week1 of citysiege launch has destro as a realm brought more players than order. That have lead to a commonly known fact that Destro need to be faster and more proactive in building their groups/warbands and be ready by the time city-queues are open. On Order in the begining it was hard to find the desired classes because of the imballance in the archtypes (too much rdps) so everyone sitting there screaming for the last tank in two or three 23/24 warbands.

Now the lazyness has just evolved, Order know that destro will flock to the gate from the get-go and you can even search to see who is in and who is still in queue, and therefor target who you might avoid or face. Such a luxary has never been on Destro since cityrelease, yet they have a mentality of building strong & fast to face whatever they face, instead of the order mentality of dodging, yolo-queue, or pray.

Despite this massive advantage for order, we still see a bigger win procentage for destro. Heck even crazy cityscores where barely a single instance win is brought home for the orderlings.
Calling Destro "better" is not untrue. Because they are better. They bring closer to a 2-2-2 setup, they organize themselves and they come prepared to face whatever they get.
Where as we on Order spend more time searching for Destro-guilds instead of filling our setups with people who actually want to fight the top destro players.

That being said. It is slightly more unforgiving to build on Order, too many weak specs, builds and the pug-culture seem to be more uneducated or playing on classes they have no idea how to contribute to teamwork with. The sheer ammount of engineer we have on Order, and only a handful actually know how to play as control-mages and setup their team. Majority of the damagedealers are afraid to be mainassist and call targets, and some even refuse to join a discord and lie about they will, upuntill they are inside the instance and try to leech of a "premade" they have joined.

[agemennon675]

Whats the solution? Give Order a buff to a class to make it more warband viable (SW).

Yeah buffs is the key word here not nerfs