City Winner History?

[Foofmonger]

Aye. And just as you argue that a rootbreaker alone isn't enough, i argue that a gapcloser alone isn't enough. Every class you want to "catch" has a way to open the distance again. When they do, you have no hope of catching up to them until your pounce goes off CD again.

I also firmly believe the Mara/WL (and all MDPS) should be more mobile than any of the hybrid off-archetype MDPS classes, as they have the option to switch and do "something" else, which true-archetype MDPS doesn't have that flexibility (so for RDPS, it's the ability to effect combat from ranged, for Supports, its the ability to heal, and for Tanks is the ability to guard/protect/do tank stuff).

This is exactly my point, they ARE more mobile. I also think the game doesn't need any more mobility than it already has.

And I think it does need more mobility, that's why we have a different philosophical opinion! Let's just agree to disagree lol. The Mara Monstro proc can certainly get looked at regardless of anything else, but frankly I think you can really go one of two ways. You can slightly tweak it to make it more appropriate, or you can heavily nerf it and give the Marauder some other functionality to compensate. There's nothing wrong with changing some fundamental aspects of "how" a class is balanced, instead of just adjusting values.

I've always felt that the Marauders survivability advantage over other MDPS was such a poor design, and I was exremely unhappy with Monstro proc the first time I saw it and I still don't like it. The design of it has always been stupid and I said from day 1 it should be a damage increasing proc to be honest. The Marauder is a DPS class, not a psuedo-debuff tank, and even when it was at it's worst for damage (circa like 09), I was making that argument lol.

[Manatikik]

You can't really weigh rootbreakers, charges, and pounces as equivalent is terms of the gains of mobility each of them gets a class. Not having a pounce ability is still an outlier for the Marauder no matter how you want to say it. In terms of raw mobility power, its very clearly pounces > charges > rootbreakers in general use cases. The Marauder being the only class that doesn't have the "fastest way to close distances with a target" is still something that the Mara can't do that the other 3 can, even if the Mara can break roots. The root breaker is an ability every single MDPS class gets, which is why the ASW and RSH don't have it (also cause giving a root breaker to SWs/SHs would be very strong on a class that can swap over to do something at ranged, even inefficiently).

Just want to quickly point out that Mara is a good bit more mobile than ASW (though with less shitty WP that gap may close but will always be in Maras favor due to charge + root immune); it sounds really counter intuitive if you don't play ASW but it is true.

I think the Mara is more mobile than the ASW, no argument there. The combination of charge + rootbreaker ouweighs the quickness of the gap closer of shadowstep.

I also firmly believe the Mara/WL (and all MDPS to a degree) should be more mobile than any of the hybrid off-archetype MDPS classes, as they have the option to switch and do "something" else, which true-archetype MDPS doesn't have that flexibility (so for RDPS, it's the ability to effect combat from ranged, for Supports, its the ability to heal, and for Tanks is the ability to guard/protect/do tank stuff).

I think maybe the ASW needs a charge equivalent to balance out with SH anyway personally.

Eh, I agree that hybrids shoudn't get the same benefits as the true classes. TBH SW doesn't need a charge and MSH's needs to be severely nerfed since it is one of the best abilities in the game plus a 10s pounce. MSH is too strong with no downsides in a lot of settings that it should have for being a hybrid.

[Foofmonger]

Just want to quickly point out that Mara is a good bit more mobile than ASW (though with less shitty WP that gap may close but will always be in Maras favor due to charge + root immune); it sounds really counter intuitive if you don't play ASW but it is true.

I think the Mara is more mobile than the ASW, no argument there. The combination of charge + rootbreaker ouweighs the quickness of the gap closer of shadowstep.

I also firmly believe the Mara/WL (and all MDPS to a degree) should be more mobile than any of the hybrid off-archetype MDPS classes, as they have the option to switch and do "something" else, which true-archetype MDPS doesn't have that flexibility (so for RDPS, it's the ability to effect combat from ranged, for Supports, its the ability to heal, and for Tanks is the ability to guard/protect/do tank stuff).

I think maybe the ASW needs a charge equivalent to balance out with SH anyway personally.

Eh, I agree that hybrids shoudn't get the same benefits as the true classes. TBH SW doesn't need a charge and MSH's needs to be severely nerfed since it is one of the best abilities in the game plus a 10s pounce. MSH is too strong with no downsides in a lot of settings that it should have for being a hybrid.

That's also a fair take as well, and probably more aligns with the overall philosophy so that's likely a better approach.

[Omegus]

I just read 17 pages that all say one thing. Most of Order has rolled the wrong class due to stupidity or vanity. Please correct me if I’m wrong here. I’m struggling with this....

Actually what we're saying is that for 5+ years and for 95% of the time in RVR Order is on the meta classes, but for the game mode introduced in the past 4 months that takes up 5% of the orvr time at most they're not meta. OTOH mdps have had 5 years of having a big **** taken on them in ORVR (keep sieges in particularly) and now have a mode where they do very well. Much like some classes are fantastic in 6v6 and some are terrible - it's just that 6v6 isn't a popular game mode so no noise is made about that mode.

And the thing is, melee dominating in cities and ranged dominating in sieges is almost nothing to do with class balance and almost everything to do with map design which the ROR devs have little/no control over. Both cities are choke point central with almost no spots that have high ground for "traditional" rdps play. Instead the classes that work are those that can easily spec for both close range AOE and long range damage, i.e. Sorc and BW.

We all know melee-range (which let's face it is anything out to about 30ft) dominates in cities and there are 2 ways of doing it: cleave/AOE and single target burst. Some classes are only good at one of those, some both, some neither. If order were bringing meta comps and still being rolled by destro 100% of the time then I could see there being a big imbalance, but - and this is anecdotal mind you - the few order guilds who do bring meta comps do well in cities.

[Omegus]

Also also, too many "12 man + pug" on order. Blob up your guilds or form large alliances. You've got people like FMJ and PNP able to usually easily field a WB and sometimes 2, both in an alliance together with other guilds who can (or could, some have gone inactive) bring their own WBs. Overflow WBs were created from alliance first, spots needed were filled from alliance first, etc. WB leaders sharing strats, sometimes joining other WB city instances to see what is done differently, etc. It has created a very healthy pool of players and leaders for city who mostly know what they're doing.

Stop being anti-social and bitter and work together. Just don't invite any drama guilds (then again, perhaps all order guilds are drama guilds these days?).

Part of the problem is that being unorganized pug on destro is easier than being unorganized pug on orders.

Mate being an unorganised pug on destro doesn't even get you into the city. Being an unorganised pug on order gets you into AD/IC 1.

[agemennon675]

Just want to quickly point out that Mara is a good bit more mobile than ASW (though with less shitty WP that gap may close but will always be in Maras favor due to charge + root immune); it sounds really counter intuitive if you don't play ASW but it is true.

I think the Mara is more mobile than the ASW, no argument there. The combination of charge + rootbreaker ouweighs the quickness of the gap closer of shadowstep.

I also firmly believe the Mara/WL (and all MDPS to a degree) should be more mobile than any of the hybrid off-archetype MDPS classes, as they have the option to switch and do "something" else, which true-archetype MDPS doesn't have that flexibility (so for RDPS, it's the ability to effect combat from ranged, for Supports, its the ability to heal, and for Tanks is the ability to guard/protect/do tank stuff).

I think maybe the ASW needs a charge equivalent to balance out with SH anyway personally.

Eh, I agree that hybrids shoudn't get the same benefits as the true classes. TBH SW doesn't need a charge and MSH's needs to be severely nerfed since it is one of the best abilities in the game plus a 10s pounce. MSH is too strong with no downsides in a lot of settings that it should have for being a hybrid.

This is correct, MSH currently have access to both single target and aoe pressure at the same spec+ on top of that a melee snare+ a charge(which can also be used as interrupt)+utility(with cooldown increaser) while ASW is said to be good at single target therefore it should not do aoe ? Than MSH should be tuned down as well

[Charon]

Stop being anti-social and bitter and work together. Just don't invite any drama guilds (then again, perhaps all order guilds are drama guilds these days?).

Part of the problem is that being unorganized pug on destro is easier than being unorganized pug on orders.

Mate being an unorganised pug on destro doesn't even get you into the city. Being an unorganised pug on order gets you into AD/IC 1.

So what that realy means - what is real population advantage dest over order and why???? - this issue was here addresed many times ..and this process only snowbolling. Balance between top order and destro groups may be even but middle tier and even pug tier of play ..there is where real health of realm depends on.

Great thanks .... Beastz, Allieune, Graffer bc they are last who want to deal with order pug even if this is many times almost like masochist acctivity - i wonder how long they gonna stay ... Way which VII took ( i dont blame and i understand) and most of xrealmers seems to be much more reasonable.

[Manatikik]

Also also, too many "12 man + pug" on order. Blob up your guilds or form large alliances. You've got people like FMJ and PNP able to usually easily field a WB and sometimes 2, both in an alliance together with other guilds who can (or could, some have gone inactive) bring their own WBs. Overflow WBs were created from alliance first, spots needed were filled from alliance first, etc. WB leaders sharing strats, sometimes joining other WB city instances to see what is done differently, etc. It has created a very healthy pool of players and leaders for city who mostly know what they're doing.

Stop being anti-social and bitter and work together. Just don't invite any drama guilds (then again, perhaps all order guilds are drama guilds these days?).

Part of the problem is that being unorganized pug on destro is easier than being unorganized pug on orders.

Mate being an unorganised pug on destro doesn't even get you into the city. Being an unorganised pug on order gets you into AD/IC 1.

i feel personally attacked and i don't like it

[Justicedelivers]

I have read carefully all of the above comments, with some i agree, with some i disagree.

From my perspective being a hardcore mmorpg player in competitive level, i have to say the following:

Being the underdog is more fun.

In the few months i play this game there are allies and enemies who gained my respect by trying to improve the gameplay for themselves and others. Being competitive is hard sometimes, takes efford and most of all, time. Like in the army for whoever served, You cannot turn a green cadet into a commando in a day and learning to him to to perform his role perfectly in a platoon; All classes are needed, in different compositions of Wb's, depends on what is your aim or goal with the WB.

Speaking of cities, i have to say that recently i started having a more constant flow of people in my WB, which is nice because people learn to synergize together, work together towards a common goal, WIN. Like mentioning before takes time. In the last 10 cities i had, if we dont get a FMJ/PNP/TUP/VII grp as enemies we perform decently well winning most of them, because we improve day by day. Top tier destro guilds are just are one step further -at least for now- and in every aspect they got my respect. Organizing improves gameplay , fun , experience. If order started to organized im sure they would see their ratios increase by a strong %.Who doesnt want to win anyways?

Getting down to RvR now, like i said i enjoy being the underdog, its more fun fighting few agaisnt many; Seeing yesterday the new keep system personally i find it lets weird, just because of population imbalance mostly and then lack of order organization/ gear difference on pugs etc.Fighting 200 vs 300 is doable with good WBs around but guess what- enemies in the 300 pax have extremely good grps as well- But the absolute numbers of 200vs 400 is merely sometimes unplayable however organized you are ,you feel or you try to be. If order had 3 more organized WB's that would balance the server i think.

These are my 5 cents from a relatively new player to the server.

See you on the battlefield, friends or foes.

[nuadarstark]

Speaking of cities, i have to say that recently i started having a more constant flow of people in my WB, which is nice because people learn to synergize together, work together towards a common goal, WIN.

All hail our Greek PUG lord, the saviour of us missfits ).