[Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

[Arbich]

Sorry, I don't understand your points. Could you elaborate them more?
Specific questions to each point:

1. So WH is bad in largescale and smallscale? That would be terrible, if true, cause these are the main game modes. As you rightfully 1vs1/ganking is highly unbalanced and a niche part of the game.

2. Slayer have better escape tools than WH? Stealth is a good escape tool, but it's not? WH can do a lot of single target dmg, but actually can't do it? I don't get any of your points.
So you say that the itemisation is disadvantage for the WH with the later sets? So a low gear WH performs better than a low gear slayer (As example), but a high gear WH performs worse than a high gear slayer?

3. Yes

4. Basically contradicts point 2?

At the beginning of your post you say that WH is outperformed by many classes, but your points didn't support this claim.

[Vandoles]

Spoiler:

Sorry, I don't understand your points. Could you elaborate them more?
Specific questions to each point:

1. So WH is bad in largescale and smallscale? That would be terrible, if true, cause these are the main game modes. As you rightfully 1vs1/ganking is highly unbalanced and a niche part of the game.

2. Slayer have better escape tools than WH? Stealth is a good escape tool, but it's not? WH can do a lot of single target dmg, but actually can't do it? I don't get any of your points.
So you say that the itemisation is disadvantage for the WH with the later sets? So a low gear WH performs better than a low gear slayer (As example), but a high gear WH performs worse than a high gear slayer?

3. Yes

4. Basically contradicts point 2?

At the beginning of your post you say that WH is outperformed by many classes, but your points didn't support this claim.

1. Yes, even the staunchest WH defenders will readily admit WH is bad in largescale and not the best in smallscale organized, certainly mostly inferior to the other mdps.

2. I don't play slayer a lot, so I'm not sure about them, certainly they have a better tool for getting INTO a fight. Also slayers are mostly aoe, their single target is in a bad state in itself right now (as far as I've heard and still irrelevant due to their super strong aoe which is meta), so not comparable to WH who already starts with the huge handicap of not having good aoe. Shadow Warrior/White Lion are a better single target comparison. Generally entering the meatgrinder aoe of current meta is better with charge rather than stealthing slowly in. Shadow warriors also have a shadowstep and white lions have pounce, which is miles better. Stealth is terrible because once you're out of it, you need 30 seconds to enter it again and that means for 30 seconds you're out of your only tool to enter/exit fights. Plus due to the fact you gotta use it right before a fight or risk it running out, enemies will normally see you stealth and it'll also drain your AP a little. It's harder to explain why stealth is quite bad until you've tried it and you'll realize that it's not what you think it is. But the escape tool is not the absolute key here. It's the answer to your second question - a WH needs to sit on a target for a specific amount of time and get your hits off to accumulate damage. This is also super vulnerable to stuff like detaunts or a tank reacting quickly with guard. As tanks exist in this game, this is not easy to do when you can be knocked down, knocked back, snared, debuffed, staggered or just simply focused. A White Lion or Shadow Warrior is much more bursty in its single target rotation and when this is combined with pounce/shadowstep, you can dash in and dump ALL your tools before you're incapacitated in some way.

4. I didn't really make any points with point 4 beyond that it's gear dependent not sure what it contradicts I guess you mean the "hilarious levels of damage" part?

I'm not sure how they don't, the lack of aoe already puts WH into the absolute second tier of the current metagame and I did kind of explain why single target WH is outshone in many ways.

Edit: Note that you may be getting confused because I'm also making the point that the WH sounds good and works in theory, but not in reality. And we're in the forum making, you know, sounds and theories

[Korhill]

Spoiler:

Sorry, I don't understand your points. Could you elaborate them more?
Specific questions to each point:

1. So WH is bad in largescale and smallscale? That would be terrible, if true, cause these are the main game modes. As you rightfully 1vs1/ganking is highly unbalanced and a niche part of the game.

2. Slayer have better escape tools than WH? Stealth is a good escape tool, but it's not? WH can do a lot of single target dmg, but actually can't do it? I don't get any of your points.
So you say that the itemisation is disadvantage for the WH with the later sets? So a low gear WH performs better than a low gear slayer (As example), but a high gear WH performs worse than a high gear slayer?

3. Yes

4. Basically contradicts point 2?

At the beginning of your post you say that WH is outperformed by many classes, but your points didn't support this claim.

1. Yes, even the staunchest WH defenders will readily admit WH is bad in largescale and not the best in smallscale organized, certainly mostly inferior to the other mdps.

2. I don't play slayer a lot, so I'm not sure about them, certainly they have a better tool for getting INTO a fight. Also slayers are mostly aoe, their single target is in a bad state in itself right now, so not comparable to WH who already starts with the huge handicap of not having good aoe. Shadow Warrior/White Lion are a better single target comparison. Generally entering the meatgrinder aoe of current meta is better with charge rather than stealthing slowly in. Shadow warriors also have a shadowstep and white lions have pounce, which is miles better. Stealth is terrible because once you're out of it, you need 30 seconds to enter it again and that means for 30 seconds you're out of your only tool to enter/exit fights. Plus due to the fact you gotta use it right before a fight or risk it running out, enemies will normally see you stealth and it'll also drain your AP a little. It's harder to explain why stealth is quite bad until you've tried it and you'll realize that it's not what you think it is. But the escape tool is not the absolute key here. It's the answer to your second question - a WH needs to sit on a target for a specific amount of time and get your hits off to accumulate damage. This is also super vulnerable to stuff like detaunts or a tank reacting quickly with guard. As tanks exist in this game, this is not easy to do when you can be knocked down, knocked back, snared, debuffed, staggered or just simply focused. A White Lion or Shadow Warrior is much more bursty in its single target rotation and when this is combined with pounce/shadowstep, you can dash in and dump ALL your tools before you're incapacitated in some way.

4. I didn't really make any points with point 4 beyond that it's gear dependent not sure what it contradicts I guess you mean the "hilarious levels of damage" part?

I'm not sure how they don't, the lack of aoe already puts WH into the absolute second tier of the current metagame and I did kind of explain why single target WH is outshone in many ways.

Edit: Note that you may be getting confused because I'm also making the point that the WH sounds good and works in theory, but not in reality. And we're in the forum making, you know, sounds and theories

Saying that WL has better single target damage is maybe right on low level or class cannon players. Since the topic is the WH I guess you mean solo too.

I made a 2 years break and with the new armors and defensive possibilities that are available (full of msh, monstro maras, or if any player invest more in defence, the WL starts to struggles a lot. Destro has even a lot of tanks.

If we talk about hardcore soloer or high level player, or players with sov/warlord, or any one who spents more in defence, and all the tanks the WH is in a better spot than the WL.

[Koha]

WEs do an insane amount of damage compared to WH

Why?

Just to answer, not to complain (I'm playing both) :

• Kisses procs first

• WE Damage is more sustained and more reliable in general : kisses and WB are not strength dependant

• WE have better armopen builds

either burst

• procs again you'll get some on the opening, no need to wait for an execution

• pierce armor ! (unique WS buff undefendable 100% armorp)

• elixir of insane power in the same tree as pierce amor and armorpen tactic

• increased dmg tactics on opening ! = 30% flanking + Masterful treachery

or sustained

• with feint reduced CD tactic = AW spam + flanking up 50% of the time (this one might have change)

• armorpen builds (pierce armor + armorpen tactic (needed?)

WH might have a niche higher burst on squishies with executions not exactly at the opening... not at demand not reliable
WH struggle to get a decent amount of WS if they don't want to stick to torment spam.

Nothing new : it was roughly the same situation on live as far as I remember. So RoR did not create this discrepency.

[Krima]

WEs do an insane amount of damage compared to WH

Why?

• pierce armor ! (unique WS buff undefendable 100% armorp)

NOT TRUE! PA can be blocked and parried. (Seekers blade, hello ? )


or sustained

• with feint reduced CD tactic = AW spam + flanking up 50% of the time (this one might have change)

False.. this need to be fixed also, bugtracker?. FP should indeed give the flanking bonus.

[Adelmar]

Koha basically hit the nail on the head on the WHvsWE discussion. I have both classes high RR and my WE (same gear as the WH pretty much) more consistently kills her target earlier in a fight and front-loads more burst than my WH seems to.

That's not to say that the WH is in an unplayable state, because that's not true, but comparatively the WH just falls short of what an "assassin" role should bring to the table. To be honest, the WE also falls short, just not as much.

Now, I don't know off the top of my head what changes or by how much have taken place on this server compared to live but both classes just feel weaker here, sadly.

[Koha]

Why?

• pierce armor ! (unique WS buff undefendable 100% armorp)

NOT TRUE! PA can be blocked and parried. (Seekers blade, hello ? )


or sustained

• with feint reduced CD tactic = AW spam + flanking up 50% of the time (this one might have change)

False.. this need to be fixed also, bugtracker?. FP should indeed give the flanking bonus.

Thanks for pointing out my error.
35 AP, 100%armorpen and WS buff is still better then seeker's blade at 45 AP undefendable and 5% strikethrough.
I understand that you agree on the rest as this was not the key argument of my explanation.

@Adelmar
Yes they both seem to lack of the high risk VS high reward in medium / large scale.

[Krima]

• pierce armor ! (unique WS buff undefendable 100% armorp)

NOT TRUE! PA can be blocked and parried. (Seekers blade, hello ? )


or sustained

• with feint reduced CD tactic = AW spam + flanking up 50% of the time (this one might have change)

False.. this need to be fixed also, bugtracker?. FP should indeed give the flanking bonus.

Thanks for pointing out my error.
35 AP, 100%armorpen and WS buff is still better then seeker's blade at 45 AP undefendable and 5% strikethrough.
I understand that you agree on the rest as this was not the key argument of my explanation.

I do agree with your other arguments.. I play both classes also. RR 70+.
I always tell my guildmates:

Burst and Spike dmg WE has the advantage.
WH is more versatile, can do ok DMG while being more defensive.. and its better at handling multiple targets alone.

[Arbich]

Spoiler:

Sorry, I don't understand your points. Could you elaborate them more?
Specific questions to each point:

1. So WH is bad in largescale and smallscale? That would be terrible, if true, cause these are the main game modes. As you rightfully 1vs1/ganking is highly unbalanced and a niche part of the game.

2. Slayer have better escape tools than WH? Stealth is a good escape tool, but it's not? WH can do a lot of single target dmg, but actually can't do it? I don't get any of your points.
So you say that the itemisation is disadvantage for the WH with the later sets? So a low gear WH performs better than a low gear slayer (As example), but a high gear WH performs worse than a high gear slayer?

3. Yes

4. Basically contradicts point 2?

At the beginning of your post you say that WH is outperformed by many classes, but your points didn't support this claim.

1. Yes, even the staunchest WH defenders will readily admit WH is bad in largescale and not the best in smallscale organized, certainly mostly inferior to the other mdps.

2. I don't play slayer a lot, so I'm not sure about them, certainly they have a better tool for getting INTO a fight. Also slayers are mostly aoe, their single target is in a bad state in itself right now (as far as I've heard and still irrelevant due to their super strong aoe which is meta), so not comparable to WH who already starts with the huge handicap of not having good aoe. Shadow Warrior/White Lion are a better single target comparison. Generally entering the meatgrinder aoe of current meta is better with charge rather than stealthing slowly in. Shadow warriors also have a shadowstep and white lions have pounce, which is miles better. Stealth is terrible because once you're out of it, you need 30 seconds to enter it again and that means for 30 seconds you're out of your only tool to enter/exit fights. Plus due to the fact you gotta use it right before a fight or risk it running out, enemies will normally see you stealth and it'll also drain your AP a little. It's harder to explain why stealth is quite bad until you've tried it and you'll realize that it's not what you think it is. But the escape tool is not the absolute key here. It's the answer to your second question - a WH needs to sit on a target for a specific amount of time and get your hits off to accumulate damage. This is also super vulnerable to stuff like detaunts or a tank reacting quickly with guard. As tanks exist in this game, this is not easy to do when you can be knocked down, knocked back, snared, debuffed, staggered or just simply focused. A White Lion or Shadow Warrior is much more bursty in its single target rotation and when this is combined with pounce/shadowstep, you can dash in and dump ALL your tools before you're incapacitated in some way.

4. I didn't really make any points with point 4 beyond that it's gear dependent not sure what it contradicts I guess you mean the "hilarious levels of damage" part?

I'm not sure how they don't, the lack of aoe already puts WH into the absolute second tier of the current metagame and I did kind of explain why single target WH is outshone in many ways.

Edit: Note that you may be getting confused because I'm also making the point that the WH sounds good and works in theory, but not in reality. And we're in the forum making, you know, sounds and theories

Why is stealth is not a good tool to get in fight?
The escape tool for WH is sanctified oil. It would be nice, if this ability would be core, but as fanatical cleansing is also mandatory and sanctified oil is before this tactic in right tree, you effectively only "lose" one skill point to grab the ability. This ability works obviously also as a good gap closer. not exactly WL lvl of mobility (which is ridiculous anyway) but better than a SW.
All melees are "vulnerable" to detaunts. I would argue that the WH is actually less vulnerable than other melee dps due to stealth and easy access knockdown.

The thing that get me confused, because I understand you so that a WH with BiS equip and experience does fine. So its essentially a player issue? The WH class might have a higher skill floor than other classes, don´t know. I almost never play my WL, because I find the pet control quite stressful and my slayer (and SW) is lvl 7 so...
But thats true for other classes, too. ask any tank (IBs in particular); or a salvation WP on the other end of the spectrum

[Vandoles]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Sorry, I don't understand your points. Could you elaborate them more?
Specific questions to each point:

1. So WH is bad in largescale and smallscale? That would be terrible, if true, cause these are the main game modes. As you rightfully 1vs1/ganking is highly unbalanced and a niche part of the game.

2. Slayer have better escape tools than WH? Stealth is a good escape tool, but it's not? WH can do a lot of single target dmg, but actually can't do it? I don't get any of your points.
So you say that the itemisation is disadvantage for the WH with the later sets? So a low gear WH performs better than a low gear slayer (As example), but a high gear WH performs worse than a high gear slayer?

3. Yes

4. Basically contradicts point 2?

At the beginning of your post you say that WH is outperformed by many classes, but your points didn't support this claim.

1. Yes, even the staunchest WH defenders will readily admit WH is bad in largescale and not the best in smallscale organized, certainly mostly inferior to the other mdps.

2. I don't play slayer a lot, so I'm not sure about them, certainly they have a better tool for getting INTO a fight. Also slayers are mostly aoe, their single target is in a bad state in itself right now, so not comparable to WH who already starts with the huge handicap of not having good aoe. Shadow Warrior/White Lion are a better single target comparison. Generally entering the meatgrinder aoe of current meta is better with charge rather than stealthing slowly in. Shadow warriors also have a shadowstep and white lions have pounce, which is miles better. Stealth is terrible because once you're out of it, you need 30 seconds to enter it again and that means for 30 seconds you're out of your only tool to enter/exit fights. Plus due to the fact you gotta use it right before a fight or risk it running out, enemies will normally see you stealth and it'll also drain your AP a little. It's harder to explain why stealth is quite bad until you've tried it and you'll realize that it's not what you think it is. But the escape tool is not the absolute key here. It's the answer to your second question - a WH needs to sit on a target for a specific amount of time and get your hits off to accumulate damage. This is also super vulnerable to stuff like detaunts or a tank reacting quickly with guard. As tanks exist in this game, this is not easy to do when you can be knocked down, knocked back, snared, debuffed, staggered or just simply focused. A White Lion or Shadow Warrior is much more bursty in its single target rotation and when this is combined with pounce/shadowstep, you can dash in and dump ALL your tools before you're incapacitated in some way.

4. I didn't really make any points with point 4 beyond that it's gear dependent not sure what it contradicts I guess you mean the "hilarious levels of damage" part?

I'm not sure how they don't, the lack of aoe already puts WH into the absolute second tier of the current metagame and I did kind of explain why single target WH is outshone in many ways.

Edit: Note that you may be getting confused because I'm also making the point that the WH sounds good and works in theory, but not in reality. And we're in the forum making, you know, sounds and theories

Saying that WL has better single target damage is maybe right on low level or class cannon players. Since the topic is the WH I guess you mean solo too.

I made a 2 years break and with the new armors and defensive possibilities that are available (full of msh, monstro maras, or if any player invest more in defence, the WL starts to struggles a lot. Destro has even a lot of tanks.

If we talk about hardcore soloer or high level player, or players with sov/warlord, or any one who spents more in defence, and all the tanks the WH is in a better spot than the WL.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a single-target melee train is almost exclusively used for squishy players? I've never heard of a tank-buster single target train. I could be wrong, not the most hardcore player.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Sorry, I don't understand your points. Could you elaborate them more?
Specific questions to each point:

1. So WH is bad in largescale and smallscale? That would be terrible, if true, cause these are the main game modes. As you rightfully 1vs1/ganking is highly unbalanced and a niche part of the game.

2. Slayer have better escape tools than WH? Stealth is a good escape tool, but it's not? WH can do a lot of single target dmg, but actually can't do it? I don't get any of your points.
So you say that the itemisation is disadvantage for the WH with the later sets? So a low gear WH performs better than a low gear slayer (As example), but a high gear WH performs worse than a high gear slayer?

3. Yes

4. Basically contradicts point 2?

At the beginning of your post you say that WH is outperformed by many classes, but your points didn't support this claim.

1. Yes, even the staunchest WH defenders will readily admit WH is bad in largescale and not the best in smallscale organized, certainly mostly inferior to the other mdps.

2. I don't play slayer a lot, so I'm not sure about them, certainly they have a better tool for getting INTO a fight. Also slayers are mostly aoe, their single target is in a bad state in itself right now (as far as I've heard and still irrelevant due to their super strong aoe which is meta), so not comparable to WH who already starts with the huge handicap of not having good aoe. Shadow Warrior/White Lion are a better single target comparison. Generally entering the meatgrinder aoe of current meta is better with charge rather than stealthing slowly in. Shadow warriors also have a shadowstep and white lions have pounce, which is miles better. Stealth is terrible because once you're out of it, you need 30 seconds to enter it again and that means for 30 seconds you're out of your only tool to enter/exit fights. Plus due to the fact you gotta use it right before a fight or risk it running out, enemies will normally see you stealth and it'll also drain your AP a little. It's harder to explain why stealth is quite bad until you've tried it and you'll realize that it's not what you think it is. But the escape tool is not the absolute key here. It's the answer to your second question - a WH needs to sit on a target for a specific amount of time and get your hits off to accumulate damage. This is also super vulnerable to stuff like detaunts or a tank reacting quickly with guard. As tanks exist in this game, this is not easy to do when you can be knocked down, knocked back, snared, debuffed, staggered or just simply focused. A White Lion or Shadow Warrior is much more bursty in its single target rotation and when this is combined with pounce/shadowstep, you can dash in and dump ALL your tools before you're incapacitated in some way.

4. I didn't really make any points with point 4 beyond that it's gear dependent not sure what it contradicts I guess you mean the "hilarious levels of damage" part?

I'm not sure how they don't, the lack of aoe already puts WH into the absolute second tier of the current metagame and I did kind of explain why single target WH is outshone in many ways.

Edit: Note that you may be getting confused because I'm also making the point that the WH sounds good and works in theory, but not in reality. And we're in the forum making, you know, sounds and theories

Why is stealth is not a good tool to get in fight?
The escape tool for WH is sanctified oil. It would be nice, if this ability would be core, but as fanatical cleansing is also mandatory and sanctified oil is before this tactic in right tree, you effectively only "lose" one skill point to grab the ability. This ability works obviously also as a good gap closer. not exactly WL lvl of mobility (which is ridiculous anyway) but better than a SW.
All melees are "vulnerable" to detaunts. I would argue that the WH is actually less vulnerable than other melee dps due to stealth and easy access knockdown.

The thing that get me confused, because I understand you so that a WH with BiS equip and experience does fine. So its essentially a player issue? The WH class might have a higher skill floor than other classes, don´t know. I almost never play my WL, because I find the pet control quite stressful and my slayer (and SW) is lvl 7 so...
But thats true for other classes, too. ask any tank (IBs in particular); or a salvation WP on the other end of the spectrum

Because with stealth you still slowly walk through the meatgrinder of aoe and you're vulnerable to aoe CC. And pounce/shadowstep are instant - stealth takes several seconds to activate and reach your target. Single-target bursting down someone requires lightning fast switches/reactions. You don't need overall mobility to take things out, you need a very quick distance closer.

Unless I'm mistaken sanctified oil is on a shared CD with sigils? It also lasts very slightly too short to be used as a good gap closer.

Everyone is vulnerable to detaunts, yes, but a WH usually needs to "load" its damage and has a 3 sec KD to burst down with. Meanwhile as I listed, a WL/SW will just dump everything in 1-2 GCDs, so you can pre-empt detaunts or burst, wait for detaunt, burst. It does fine with any equipment, it just does ever so slightly worse than other options. It especially does fine with BiS equip, but WL/aSW do even better with BiS equip.

And no, it's not a player issue at all. Some of the most skilled players on the server play WHs. The fantasy and feel of the class attracts mad dedicated people. It doesn't have the highest skill cap either, WH is fairly straightforward, its only really playing around stealth/low mobility that requires thinking and positioning.

If you don't understand what I'm getting at about the stealth, i urge you to play a WH for a while. You don't need to play for ages, you'll immediately get a feel where its mobility is a lot worse in practice than it is in theory. And besides the whole thing becomes undone anyway because of the single target issues - single target nuking in this game is like threading a needle, you either get it perfect or not at all.