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Patch Notes 23/10/2020

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Alcan
Suspended
Posts: 69

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#171 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:33 pm

Im just asking for Rsh cause another nerf for em really?

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Secrets
Developer
Posts: 246

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#172 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm

Ramlaen wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:32 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:46 pm
Ramlaen wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:10 pm


Nath wanted to nerf old Runefang so KOBS were given Mighty Soul in return (your statement, not mine).

Shouldn't the removal of Mighty Soul mean KOBS are given old Runefang back?
Imagine there's longer more detailed conversations, or even arguments, about what to do with each balance change and it wasn't a simple whimsical swapping of some data. We don't need to have those hard conversations with a hundred more people on the forums, you guys are doing just fine talking to each other.

Also imagine giving a long-form explanation, as requested, to have a single point cherry-picked, misrepresented, so you can ask for it to be reverted, ignoring all other context of the post. I'm sure that's going to generate a desire to post long-form reasoning for balance changes in the future right?
Wait, your argument against long form reasoning for balance changes is because different people respond to different parts of a long list of topics?

But since you made the assertion, what did I misrepresent here;
-snipping big image-
Just to be clear because keyboard warriors LOVE to misrepresent my words taken out of context:

-Natherul wanted to nerf Runefang
-I was opposed to nerfing Runefang because Runefang was very heavily in knight's class identity
-Natherul was adamant on nerfing Runefang, and not giving Chosens an equal nerf - because Chosen was 'in a bad spot' according to him.
-I made the point of, "Well, if you're nerfing Runefang to the same scaling as Daemonclaw, why not mirror them instead as Knight and Chosen are in a similar spot in terms of damage?" which lead to, "No; Knights are too OP and need tuned down."
-There was a 3 hour back and forth about nerfing Runefang and such; eventually, we decided on Mighty Soul as baseline, and the Chosen Mirror of Daemonclaw having Str/WS and Knight having Ini/WP.

In hindsight, I really would have liked this:
-Revert the Mighty Soul tactic changes, revert the knight elemental damage ability changes
-Restore Chosen's old defensive tactic (10% reduced chance to be crit tactic? I think it was)
-Mirror old Runefang with Daemonclaw, but in different trees like they were before (Chosen Daemonclaw in 2h tree, Knight MS in Utility tree, Runefang Baseline, Chosen MS-like ability removed)

and that's it. I don't want too get into any discussion beyond that, and it's clear that Knight and Chosen players are not happy with this change, but that's what I *really* wanted to begin with.

For the record, I am against too much functionality changes. I think those kind of changes are piss-poor, and small incremental value changes serve us much better long-term. New abilities should be introduced only on gear sets in the form of procs or raw stats, and general balance has been fine for quite some time and I remain adamant in keeping it the way it is.

I am pretty sure the team as well is getting sick of wasting time placating specific groups of people because they think something is OP and they think it's unfair the opposite faction has something, and then changing it so the opposite side has something and ending up getting entire swaths of people upset in return, repeating the cycle.

In my opinion, the next round of changes, if any, should be aimed at reverting Knights/Chosens, then Ranged SH, then 2H Choppa / 2H Slayer plus a re-tune of Choppa's standard 1h AOE abilities versus the output of Slayer 1h AOE abilities, followed by AM/Shaman mechanic changes, and that's it. Maybe something to solve the fact that WH triggers their bullets on finishers only which leads to WE having a massive advantage in that field. Those are probably the only classes that need touched, though. Beyond that? I don't agree much else needs adjusting beyond small damage values. Nothing else should be massively sweeping like we have been doing to Knight/Chosen class identity over the last 2 years.

We've already killed every stupidly OP meta mechanic beyond that, and everything else is pretty much down to rock-paper-scissors mechanics at this point, and very few classes are left without a counter of some sorts.

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Secrets
Developer
Posts: 246

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#173 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:22 pm

Alcan wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:33 pm
Im just asking for Rsh cause another nerf for em really?
rSH didn't get a nerf at all this patch lol. If you bothered reading the patch, you'd see they have a huge buff in pet damage.

Reading comprehension seems to be difficult for a lot of folks, so I will give you a pass on this one.

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OldSparky
Posts: 87

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#174 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:41 pm

Secrets wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm
In hindsight, I really would have liked this:
-Revert the Mighty Soul tactic changes, revert the knight elemental damage ability changes
-Restore Chosen's old defensive tactic (10% reduced chance to be crit tactic? I think it was)
-Mirror old Runefang with Daemonclaw, but in different trees like they were before (Chosen Daemonclaw in 2h tree, Knight MS in Utility tree, Runefang Baseline, Chosen MS-like ability removed)
From what I've looked at, Discordant Winds replaced Critical Suppression according to this patchnote viewtopic.php?f=42&t=34703

Not sure if it was changed at some point, but according to stuff I found it made Suppression apply a debuff which reduced victim's chances to defend against attacks by 10% for 10 seconds.

sogeou
Posts: 324

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#175 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:12 am

Secrets wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:22 pm
Alcan wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:33 pm
Im just asking for Rsh cause another nerf for em really?
rSH didn't get a nerf at all this patch lol. If you bothered reading the patch, you'd see they have a huge buff in pet damage.

Reading comprehension seems to be difficult for a lot of folks, so I will give you a pass on this one.
Your post of above this is perfect. Time for you to be the patch notes talker guy. That is how things should look. Nice job.

Zxul
Posts: 1007

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#176 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:11 am

Secrets wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm
Maybe something to solve the fact that WH triggers their bullets on finishers only which leads to WE having a massive advantage in that field.
To clarify this one. By itself yep, however unlike WEs, WHs also have a Flowing Accusation tactic giving them a 50% chance to restore accusations on executions (WE's mirror Whirling Blades works on regular abilities, not on executions). Which in turn, allows WHs to use an Absolution execution spam build- where each Absolution has a 50% chance for allowing to use Absolution again the next GCD, meaning guaranteed bullet going off on 75% of total GCDs- unlike WE which even with 1.5 weapon speed will have on average kisses going off on 50% of GCDs. Likely used with Blessed Blade tactic, giving WH in this build a constant 50% increase in armor penetration on top.

In addition (per posts by WHs, didn't test it personally), unlike kiss which WE can only get one per ICD, WH can use Dragon Gun aoe execution to trigger bullet on each target hit, resulting (when used with Sanctified Bullets tactic) in massive self heal.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

kazuya482
Posts: 21

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#177 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:16 am

Thank god for Secrets..

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Brizio
Posts: 86

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#178 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:13 am

Don't get me wrong, i do love all the work devs been doing but balance patches has been a mess lately.

Just level a few classes and play them while they are on a decent spot.

For instance, i havent healed on my AM for like 2 years.

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Orgruk
Posts: 167

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#179 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:01 am

Secrets wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm
In my opinion, the next round of changes, if any, should be aimed at .... then 2H Choppa / 2H Slayer plus a re-tune of Choppa's standard 1h AOE abilities versus the output of Slayer 1h AOE abilities

Image
Secrets wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm
In my opinion next round of changes should.... re-tune of Choppa's 1h AOE abilities vs the output of Slayer 1h AOE abilities

Image

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Ramlaen
Posts: 149

Re: Patch Notes 23/10/2020

Post#180 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:10 am

Secrets wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:19 pm
Ramlaen wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:32 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:46 pm


Imagine there's longer more detailed conversations, or even arguments, about what to do with each balance change and it wasn't a simple whimsical swapping of some data. We don't need to have those hard conversations with a hundred more people on the forums, you guys are doing just fine talking to each other.

Also imagine giving a long-form explanation, as requested, to have a single point cherry-picked, misrepresented, so you can ask for it to be reverted, ignoring all other context of the post. I'm sure that's going to generate a desire to post long-form reasoning for balance changes in the future right?
Wait, your argument against long form reasoning for balance changes is because different people respond to different parts of a long list of topics?

But since you made the assertion, what did I misrepresent here;
-snipping big image-
Just to be clear because keyboard warriors LOVE to misrepresent my words taken out of context:

-Natherul wanted to nerf Runefang
-I was opposed to nerfing Runefang because Runefang was very heavily in knight's class identity
-Natherul was adamant on nerfing Runefang, and not giving Chosens an equal nerf - because Chosen was 'in a bad spot' according to him.
-I made the point of, "Well, if you're nerfing Runefang to the same scaling as Daemonclaw, why not mirror them instead as Knight and Chosen are in a similar spot in terms of damage?" which lead to, "No; Knights are too OP and need tuned down."
-There was a 3 hour back and forth about nerfing Runefang and such; eventually, we decided on Mighty Soul as baseline, and the Chosen Mirror of Daemonclaw having Str/WS and Knight having Ini/WP.

In hindsight, I really would have liked this:
-Revert the Mighty Soul tactic changes, revert the knight elemental damage ability changes
-Restore Chosen's old defensive tactic (10% reduced chance to be crit tactic? I think it was)
-Mirror old Runefang with Daemonclaw, but in different trees like they were before (Chosen Daemonclaw in 2h tree, Knight MS in Utility tree, Runefang Baseline, Chosen MS-like ability removed)

and that's it. I don't want too get into any discussion beyond that, and it's clear that Knight and Chosen players are not happy with this change, but that's what I *really* wanted to begin with.

For the record, I am against too much functionality changes. I think those kind of changes are piss-poor, and small incremental value changes serve us much better long-term. New abilities should be introduced only on gear sets in the form of procs or raw stats, and general balance has been fine for quite some time and I remain adamant in keeping it the way it is.

I am pretty sure the team as well is getting sick of wasting time placating specific groups of people because they think something is OP and they think it's unfair the opposite faction has something, and then changing it so the opposite side has something and ending up getting entire swaths of people upset in return, repeating the cycle.

In my opinion, the next round of changes, if any, should be aimed at reverting Knights/Chosens, then Ranged SH, then 2H Choppa / 2H Slayer plus a re-tune of Choppa's standard 1h AOE abilities versus the output of Slayer 1h AOE abilities, followed by AM/Shaman mechanic changes, and that's it. Maybe something to solve the fact that WH triggers their bullets on finishers only which leads to WE having a massive advantage in that field. Those are probably the only classes that need touched, though. Beyond that? I don't agree much else needs adjusting beyond small damage values. Nothing else should be massively sweeping like we have been doing to Knight/Chosen class identity over the last 2 years.

We've already killed every stupidly OP meta mechanic beyond that, and everything else is pretty much down to rock-paper-scissors mechanics at this point, and very few classes are left without a counter of some sorts.
Thank you for your candid answer and filling in detail, it is easy for us 'keyboard warriors' to misunderstand what is going on given how opaque things are.
Ramlaen, Longhaul, Wolfnrock, Grashop, Popori, Ebichu

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