Fort Tracker One Week In

[Gurf]

There is one more interesting aspect of this threat in my opinion - not that long ago there was similar topic regarding order losing cca 70% of cities. This caused series of destro nerfs with message that balance has to be restored with the goal that city win rate should be cca 50% for both factions.
Now we have this threat, proving that there is 90% + Order wins in fort, so it will be very interesting how devs respond to it.
If they start with destro buffs/order nerfs I am sure it will cause another outrage of community down the line with similar topic similar to this one and the question is how will it stop?
If they ignore this and do nothing I would expect that more and more people will quit/reroll order, as moral will get lower and lower.

There is one thing for sure - I am glad I am not dev

The Dev's already responded and made Forts easier in the last patch, the result was that Destro win rate went even further down, so it shows that it is a player mentality issue as much as anything else that if they take steps to help a faction and that faction just gets worse.

[emiliorv]

Destro have larger numbers during EU primetime AND organization.

Looks like you are getting a hard time understanding the problem:
-EU Primetime/destro=> destro have larger numbers and organization (quoteing you, really not sure about the second "fact") => Destro winrate in forts is 43% in EU primetime.
-NA Primetime/order=> order have larger numbers and organization (quoteing you, really not sure about the second "fact") => Order winrate in forts is 100% in NA primetime.

You see the difference now? in same situation (higher numbers + organization) order win all the forts pushed and destro win 4 of every 10 forts pushed.


NOTE: I added a tag for EU/NA primetime in the spreadsheet (EU From 15h => 24h, probably can be tweaked) and winners separated by primetime zone:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R50XDs ... sp=sharing

Feel free to use.

[Sybreal]

The reason it seems like Order warbands tend to roll over Destro ones is because the organized warbands are usually geared specifically to counter the Destro melee train. We use Slayers, White Lions, and bomb Bright Wizards to blow up the grouped up mass of melee fighters or try and force our way through/around that blob and nuke the bunched up healers/ranged dps that can actually threaten our comp before they can do anything.

It's just tactics that can be pulled off with organized leadership. Now, Destro isn't adapting as well to what we're using to counter Destro. The recent Inevitable City fight we lost stages 1 and 2 because we used the standard "counter Destro melee ball" tactic and ended up fighting against 3 really good ranged DPS and healers that tended to spread out. We only won stage 3 because they had nowhere to go and we could catch and kill them much easier. In an open RvR lake this would be much much harder to do before they wipe us.

If Destro comes up with a counter to our counter, then either we would have to adapt to that or we'll start getting rolled.

Again, the problem is mostly the people. Too many want to keep playing the classes/strategies that don't work without good coordinated leadership. In an even fight between 2 melee trains, the one that can outmaneuver the other and kill the healers first wins. I've been on both ends of that situation.

[Sybreal]

Destro have larger numbers during EU primetime AND organization.

Looks like you are getting a hard time understanding the problem:
-EU Primetime/destro=> destro have larger numbers and organization (quoteing you, really not sure about the second "fact") => Destro winrate in forts is 43% in EU primetime.
-NA Primetime/order=> order have larger numbers and organization (quoteing you, really not sure about the second "fact") => Order winrate in forts is 100% in NA primetime.

You see the difference now? in same situation (higher numbers + organization) order win all the forts pushed and destro win 4 of every 10 forts pushed.


NOTE: I added a tag for EU/NA primetime in the spreadsheet (EU From 15h => 24h, probably can be tweaked) and winners separated by primetime zone:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R50XDs ... sp=sharing

Feel free to use.

If you actually read everything I wrote, I also said I wasn't sure about the leadership in Destro fort pushes. They streamrolled us all throughout the pairing and then just flopped at fort. They fail one or two pushes then just give up. I've attacked forts where we've just barely won on the 3rd or 4th push. Just have to change tactics a bit and not try doing the same exact thing that didn't work the last time. Did pushing the left side of the door fail? Maybe next time try the right side. Did someone morale drain the tanks so they didn't have M4s? Did postern not push with main? Did they not wipe the defenders on the ramp? When the order players xrealmed to destro to get that 5 star Altdorf, they took the forts super easy. And again, yesterday during EU primetime they failed at SW after giving up on the 2nd push and then went and won Reikwald. You can't just keep blaming the other side for everything. Time and again Destro seems to just try the same exact tactics and then gets surprised when they don't work anymore.

The system isn't perfect but you have to first fix the things you can instead of blaming everyone else. It's not like you can pull good WB leaders out of a hat but someone has to step up and start trying or NA destro won't do anything until the next big population shift.

[emiliorv]

Spoiler:

Destro have larger numbers during EU primetime AND organization.

Looks like you are getting a hard time understanding the problem:
-EU Primetime/destro=> destro have larger numbers and organization (quoteing you, really not sure about the second "fact") => Destro winrate in forts is 43% in EU primetime.
-NA Primetime/order=> order have larger numbers and organization (quoteing you, really not sure about the second "fact") => Order winrate in forts is 100% in NA primetime.

You see the difference now? in same situation (higher numbers + organization) order win all the forts pushed and destro win 4 of every 10 forts pushed.


NOTE: I added a tag for EU/NA primetime in the spreadsheet (EU From 15h => 24h, probably can be tweaked) and winners separated by primetime zone:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R50XDs ... sp=sharing

Feel free to use.

If you actually read everything I wrote, I also said I wasn't sure about the leadership in Destro fort pushes. They streamrolled us all throughout the pairing and then just flopped at fort. They fail one or two pushes then just give up. I've attacked forts where we've just barely won on the 3rd or 4th push. Just have to change tactics a bit and not try doing the same exact thing that didn't work the last time. Did pushing the left side of the door fail? Maybe next time try the right side. Did someone morale drain the tanks so they didn't have M4s? Did postern not push with main? Did they not wipe the defenders on the ramp? When the order players xrealmed to destro to get that 5 star Altdorf, they took the forts super easy. And again, yesterday during EU primetime they failed at SW after giving up on the 2nd push and then went and won Reikwald. You can't just keep blaming the other side for everything. Time and again Destro seems to just try the same exact tactics and then gets surprised when they don't work anymore.

The system isn't perfect but you have to first fix the things you can instead of blaming everyone else. It's not like you can pull good WB leaders out of a hat but someone has to step up and start trying or NA destro won't do anything until the next big population shift.

I will not add anything more, when destro had a 70% winrate in City the heaven was falling, there was HUGE imbalances (order said) and the nerfhammer hit hard destro ...now that order have a 94% winrate in forts everything is fine, game is balanced and anything needs to be looked.

Ok.

[Sybreal]

Spoiler:

Looks like you are getting a hard time understanding the problem:
-EU Primetime/destro=> destro have larger numbers and organization (quoteing you, really not sure about the second "fact") => Destro winrate in forts is 43% in EU primetime.
-NA Primetime/order=> order have larger numbers and organization (quoteing you, really not sure about the second "fact") => Order winrate in forts is 100% in NA primetime.

You see the difference now? in same situation (higher numbers + organization) order win all the forts pushed and destro win 4 of every 10 forts pushed.


NOTE: I added a tag for EU/NA primetime in the spreadsheet (EU From 15h => 24h, probably can be tweaked) and winners separated by primetime zone:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R50XDs ... sp=sharing

Feel free to use.

If you actually read everything I wrote, I also said I wasn't sure about the leadership in Destro fort pushes. They streamrolled us all throughout the pairing and then just flopped at fort. They fail one or two pushes then just give up. I've attacked forts where we've just barely won on the 3rd or 4th push. Just have to change tactics a bit and not try doing the same exact thing that didn't work the last time. Did pushing the left side of the door fail? Maybe next time try the right side. Did someone morale drain the tanks so they didn't have M4s? Did postern not push with main? Did they not wipe the defenders on the ramp? When the order players xrealmed to destro to get that 5 star Altdorf, they took the forts super easy. And again, yesterday during EU primetime they failed at SW after giving up on the 2nd push and then went and won Reikwald. You can't just keep blaming the other side for everything. Time and again Destro seems to just try the same exact tactics and then gets surprised when they don't work anymore.

The system isn't perfect but you have to first fix the things you can instead of blaming everyone else. It's not like you can pull good WB leaders out of a hat but someone has to step up and start trying or NA destro won't do anything until the next big population shift.

I will not add anything more, when destro had a 70% winrate in City the heaven was falling, there was HUGE imbalances (order said) and the banhammer hit hard destro ...now that order have a 94% winrate in forts everything is fine, game is balanced and anything needs to be looked.

Ok.

The meta and how the devs wanted the game to play out shifted away from the class balance/tactics Destro was using. Instead of adapting, they just kept doing the same thing and getting angry that it doesn't work anymore. To counter the Destro melee train, we made and geared up specific classes/builds. The entire point of those warbands is to counter the tactics Destro has been using. It's like complaining that front-loaded muskets aren't working against your enemies who've moved on to using cartridge storage rifles and refusing to update your weaponry. You have to work with what you're given and adapt. If you actually try to adapt there is no counter, then there is a big problem. From what I've seen, Destro hasn't tried to adapt very well.

[emiliorv]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

If you actually read everything I wrote, I also said I wasn't sure about the leadership in Destro fort pushes. They streamrolled us all throughout the pairing and then just flopped at fort. They fail one or two pushes then just give up. I've attacked forts where we've just barely won on the 3rd or 4th push. Just have to change tactics a bit and not try doing the same exact thing that didn't work the last time. Did pushing the left side of the door fail? Maybe next time try the right side. Did someone morale drain the tanks so they didn't have M4s? Did postern not push with main? Did they not wipe the defenders on the ramp? When the order players xrealmed to destro to get that 5 star Altdorf, they took the forts super easy. And again, yesterday during EU primetime they failed at SW after giving up on the 2nd push and then went and won Reikwald. You can't just keep blaming the other side for everything. Time and again Destro seems to just try the same exact tactics and then gets surprised when they don't work anymore.

The system isn't perfect but you have to first fix the things you can instead of blaming everyone else. It's not like you can pull good WB leaders out of a hat but someone has to step up and start trying or NA destro won't do anything until the next big population shift.

I will not add anything more, when destro had a 70% winrate in City the heaven was falling, there was HUGE imbalances (order said) and the banhammer hit hard destro ...now that order have a 94% winrate in forts everything is fine, game is balanced and anything needs to be looked.

Ok.

The meta and how the devs wanted the game to play out shifted away from the class balance/tactics Destro was using.

No more questions. Totally agreed.

From what I've seen, Destro hasn't tried to adapt very well.

Wrong. They adapted very well. But now you see the adapted ones playing in your own faction. Others adapted paying anyhing else, so yes players adapted well.

[Starx]

Order have more RDPS its not really rocket science when the devs decided for some reason to up AoE cap to 24 from 9. Trying to push through a ~4 man wide opening against a RDPS heavy faction with 3x the firepower they had on live is suicide without coordinated immaculate, and even then.

Do pugs even know why you wait for m4's? I feel like its still some mystery to them. Either way most sieges over half of your force is uncoordinated pugs in shitty comp groups that arent built for pushing into a choke, defenders doesnt matter just dont be MDPS and you are useful.

Forts need an overhaul, stage 1 is awful and serves absolutely no purpose please scrap it and give MDPS something to do outside of the afking waiting for m4 push or jacking off in a corner on defense while RDPS rack up 100+ kills.

Attacking blows ass and always has, and RDPS > MDPS in these 150v150 engagements, guess which side has more rdps? It's not a mystery.

Well what do you suggest? Maybe like give rSH the skirm tree (or something like it) from SW and give Order another aoe melee dmg dealer like put barrage in assault tree and take the cd off of SW aoe cleave. I dunno.

First problem is the devs game design philosophy when it comes to progression. Im not sure if its that they think players will quit if they are allowed to skip content, which we saw early on in the server with them totally going after any form of power leveling, removing rats, removing RvR scaled mobs, Etc... then eventually just nuking everything and changing how group XP works. PvE still requiring you to do content that doesn't have any relevance to your character for wards which on live you could get wards from both PvE and PvP. And then in a totally twisted turn of events adding a ToK requirement to RvR gear path which effects forts. The fact that royals break down into invaders 1:1 is also totally laughable. IMO people quit the game when they are bored on 1 character and look at the massive amount of grind they have to make an alt with endgame gear, not because they run out of **** to do.

You could test my idea, and many others regarding organization by adding in population caps for archetypes. For instance there are only so many slots for RDPS, MDPS, Healers, Tanks. This would allow even pug warbands to build 2-2-2 or at least 3-2-1 groups. But doing this may be harsh, simply because fort is mandatory content for ALL your characters which is why I wrote that paragraph above about how forts really shouldn't be required content.

The other thing is I think the flags should be reworked into a persistent mechanic and holding certain flags/objectives give bonuses to whichever sides holds them. This will do 2 things, give MDPS or small unoptimized groups something to do besides sit in a choke for 30 minutes, and it will split up the zerg somewhat and make forts more interesting. As of right now stage 1 of fort servers no purpose other than to delay the fort an additional what 10 or so minutes?

[Valarion]

There are a few good Destro guilds taking a break right now with even a few others that have switched sides to Order. Destro overall has had probably been a little more consistently nerfed since May as well.

Im curious how much of this is to blame?

[Rekoom]

The issue with adapting Destro comps to use more rDPS is that Order rDPS outbombs Destro's in the first place which is the reason why... Order has more rDPS and Destro has more melee to.... Counter Order rDPS.

So now Order has superior mDPS ball (as Sybreal rightly pointed out) AND rDPS (the reason why Order rDPS is overpopulated) and Heals (KotBS + WP).