Order dominated ORVR => but when campaing hit IC loads of xrealmers logged into destro toons...so you lose that advantage when talking about city.
loads of people started to complain about Slayers => ppl started to complain about slayers when proper wbs started to play them properly and stacking them beacuse are stupidily op and its a **** pain to counter a stack of slayers (and still looks like order refuse to play them). its normal and will happen again if order start to play their best clases properly...
Again, we don't want 3 overperforming heroes, we need more classes to viable, as is the case with destro.
If the situation was order got more viable classes and destro the most ovetuned classes you will come here to clain exactly the contrary...(because destro will play their best classes for sure)
what are you talking about? destropriders are not some mythical 1% above 180 IQ orginized mmo pvp destroyers. what theories are you pulling out of thin year dude?
Situation now is that destro has more viable classes for endgame content, our proposal is to make more order classes optimized for city, what's problem with that?
So now argument shifter to: if you want to win city play sl/bw/kobs/wp, if you don't play these classes you don't deserve to win. while destro has more classes for city and they can enjoy playing classes they want (more than order, to be fair) and still have more options for city.
Again, we don't want 3 overperforming heroes, we need more classes to viable, as is the case with destro.
If the situation was order got more viable classes and destro the most ovetuned classes you will come here to clain exactly the contrary...(because destro will play their best classes for sure)
what are you talking about? destropriders are not some mythical 1% above 180 IQ orginized mmo pvp destroyers. what theories are you pulling out of thin year dude?
Situation now is that destro has more viable classes for endgame content, our proposal is to make more order classes optimized for city, what's problem with that?
You dont need 180 IQ to play the best class available for the role you wanna fill....its only a question of logic. really i dont get why ppl keep playing lol-classes/lol-specs and gimping their playtime ( i can understand for roleplayers...). Once you choose the role you want to fill look for the best class for that role, dont look too complicated....
our proposal is to make more order classes optimized for city, what's problem with that? => i have no problems with that, but making that means to tune down your heroes to tune up the other classes...and im not sure what the rest of your realm will think about that...mostly looking the reacts denying the obvious..
If the situation was order got more viable classes and destro the most ovetuned classes you will come here to clain exactly the contrary...(because destro will play their best classes for sure)
what are you talking about? destropriders are not some mythical 1% above 180 IQ orginized mmo pvp destroyers. what theories are you pulling out of thin year dude?
Situation now is that destro has more viable classes for endgame content, our proposal is to make more order classes optimized for city, what's problem with that?
You dont need 180 IQ to play the best class available for the role you wanna fill....its only a question of logic. really i dont get why ppl keep playing lol-classes/lol-specs and gimping their playtime ( i can understand for roleplayers...). Once you choose the role you want to fill look for the best class for that role, dont look too complicated....
our proposal is to make more order classes optimized for city, what's problem with that? => i have no problems with that, but making that means to tune down your heroes to tune up the other classes...and im not sure what the rest of your realm will think about that...mostly looking the reacts denying the obvious..
again, you approach to balance and people picking classes is, as appears to me, a bit flawed. The game has 24 classes, you should not be forced to play 4 classes to remain competitive, that approach is stupid, just make 4 classes and all is good? game should try to have more variety to give players more choices, to appeal to bigger base of players.
As for second argument, yes? SL of all order classes has the best aoe damage+best aoe utility, which is definition of overtuned and when endgame content favours aoe over ST, this messes balance.
Please reflect on your argument of pick 4 classes if you want to win on order, while destro has more options for good wb composition. If you think all destro classes are played because of their performance and not other reasons and it just gives players advantage of playing your class+be competitive in cities. Just reverse situation, imagine if destro needed to play only 4 overpeforming classes for cities and others were not competitive, would you like it?
Sundowner wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:42 am
Do I remember correctly that both order and destro have one aoe cd increaser (sl and sh), but destro has 2 decreasers while order has 1?
Order increasers:
Slayer
Engie,
Interrupt/set back (counter to decreaser):
KOTBS
Engie
Decreaser:
SM
Plus surprise morale pumps&drains, AA increasers, CC group immunities...
There's a reason why order has more drains and des decreasers
Still doesn't explain why SMs increaser is so bad in comparison to BOs
Sundowner wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:56 pm
So now argument shifter to: if you want to win city play sl/bw/kobs/wp, if you don't play these classes you don't deserve to win. while destro has more classes for city and they can enjoy playing classes they want (more than order, to be fair) and still have more options for city.
Absolute state of this forum
(more than order, to be fair) => the only diference is mSW VS mSH. The rest of "unwanted classes" stay the same for both realms
In both realm some classes are core for WB setup, and others only fill some niche roles => there are limited spots for that, so usually only need 1 of these classes. and yes, you will have less options to join a wb as a AM healer than as WP/RP, the same happen with shamans...
Sundowner wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:42 am
Do I remember correctly that both order and destro have one aoe cd increaser (sl and sh), but destro has 2 decreasers while order has 1?
Order increasers:
Slayer
Engie,
Interrupt/set back (counter to decreaser):
KOTBS
Engie
Decreaser:
SM
Plus surprise morale pumps&drains, AA increasers, CC group immunities...
There's a reason why order has more drains and des decreasers
Still doesn't explain why SMs increaser is so bad in comparison to BOs
SMs having it for free while BO has to spec for it would be my first guess. Also, BO cd increaser is direct mirror of IB Shield sweep + Furious reprisal combo soo... Order has it?
Last edited by NSKaneda on Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++ Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+ * * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *
Sundowner wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:42 am
Do I remember correctly that both order and destro have one aoe cd increaser (sl and sh), but destro has 2 decreasers while order has 1?
how about order have 3 pounce destro have 1, for yrs 0 until the msh pity one, order have 2 ranged kd destro have 0 for a yrs until the rsh pity one again. comparion like this are pointless.
Sundowner wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:42 am
Do I remember correctly that both order and destro have one aoe cd increaser (sl and sh), but destro has 2 decreasers while order has 1?
Order increasers:
Slayer
Engie,
Interrupt/set back (counter to decreaser):
KOTBS
Engie
Decreaser:
SM
Plus surprise morale pumps&drains, AA increasers, CC group immunities...
There's a reason why order has more drains and des decreasers
Engineer, if you're referring to dazzling flash, does not increase cooldowns; they increase cast times. Cooldown increasers affect everything, including instant cast. Cast time increasers just make you take longer to cast an ability.
For example, DoK/WP has a 1s cast time. If an Engineer hits with Dazzling Flash, it now takes 1.5s. Hardly effective given the GCD. If a SL or SH hit with their cooldown increaser, DoK/WP has a 1s cast time, but can't recast for 3s. That's effective.
Do I remember correctly that both order and destro have one aoe cd increaser (sl and sh), but destro has 2 decreasers while order has 1?
It used to be both sides had 1 AoE Cooldown increaser and 1 Decreaser. SH and SL always had an increaser, and Choppa and SM had the decreaser. The issue was back then mSH was garbage, but with the rework became way too effective. They now have pounce, better mobility options, tanky, and their ability is a 40ft frontal vs Slayer's 30ft PBAoE. This allows them to apply it MUCH easier to priority targets (Healers).
Similarly Choppa had a 20s group decreaser on demand, and SM had a 10s that required a target and successful hit while giving immunity. However, Choppa only had 33% uptime, and SM had a 50% uptime, so being more difficult to pull off was worth it. That's not the case anymore. Choppa now has 50% uptime at the click of a button, no prep needed. BO was also given the ability at the cost of a tactic (who cares), with 50% uptime, only like Choppa they can just pre-set it and hit a button at the start of a fight without a target (if they have to hit, it's moot, because it's an AoE). Neither the Choppa or BO give a free immunity either. If you hit a melee, you're giving them free immunity to knockdowns and the like, because WW has a silence built in. On top of that, most premades will have a Choppa and BO, and their cooldown decreasers effect each other, so their uptime is even better. There's no reason to take two SM, as you're then losing out on a KotBS.
So tl;dr, the increasers aren't too badly different, but SH definitely has a much easier time applying the ability to key targets. Destro gets two decreasers vs. Order's one, and their's are vastly better abilities due to ease of use and function.
Sundowner wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:42 am
Do I remember correctly that both order and destro have one aoe cd increaser (sl and sh), but destro has 2 decreasers while order has 1?
how about order have 3 pounce destro have 1, for yrs 0 until the msh pity one, order have 2 ranged kd destro have 0 for a yrs until the rsh pity one again. comparion like this are pointless.
Order had 2 (SM Morale, and WL Pounce) and Destro had 0. This was deliberately done because Destro was given more speed options to interact with Pounce (RUN AWAY!...?). Nobody is saying it's balanced, but Order wasn't given the abilities to deal with Pounce like Destro innately has.
destropriders are not some mythical 1% above 180 IQ orginized mmo pvp destroyers. what theories are you pulling out of thin year dude? 
game should try to have more variety to give players more choices, to appeal to bigger base of players.
