do we have a balance problem?

[emiliorv]

Spoiler:

what are you talking about? destropriders are not some mythical 1% above 180 IQ orginized mmo pvp destroyers. what theories are you pulling out of thin year dude?

Situation now is that destro has more viable classes for endgame content, our proposal is to make more order classes optimized for city, what's problem with that?

You dont need 180 IQ to play the best class available for the role you wanna fill....its only a question of logic. really i dont get why ppl keep playing lol-classes/lol-specs and gimping their playtime ( i can understand for roleplayers...). Once you choose the role you want to fill look for the best class for that role, dont look too complicated....


our proposal is to make more order classes optimized for city, what's problem with that? => i have no problems with that, but making that means to tune down your heroes to tune up the other classes...and im not sure what the rest of your realm will think about that...mostly looking the reacts denying the obvious..

again, you approach to balance and people picking classes is, as appears to me, a bit flawed. The game has 24 classes, you should not be forced to play 4 classes to remain competitive, that approach is stupid, just make 4 classes and all is good? game should try to have more variety to give players more choices, to appeal to bigger base of players.

As for second argument, yes? SL of all order classes has the best aoe damage+best aoe utility, which is definition of overtuned and when endgame content favours aoe over ST, this messes balance.

Please reflect on your argument of pick 4 classes if you want to win on order, while destro has more options for good wb composition. If you think all destro classes are played because of their performance and not other reasons and it just gives players advantage of playing your class+be competitive in cities. Just reverse situation, imagine if destro needed to play only 4 overpeforming classes for cities and others were not competitive, would you like it?

Other classes perform better in others aspect of the game => dps am/shaman are king of solo roaming but are underperforming in city instances....

when endgame was forts (not much time ago) rdps had advantage over mdps....

The destro wb composition was changing adapting to the nerfs we was getting along all this year...how much stacks of marauders you see right now? (morale drain nerfed and after that aoe dmg nerfed) some months ago was the most stacked mdps on destro....

[NSKaneda]

Spoiler:

Do I remember correctly that both order and destro have one aoe cd increaser (sl and sh), but destro has 2 decreasers while order has 1?

Order increasers:
Slayer
IB

Interrupt/set back (counter to decreaser):
KOTBS
Engie

Decreaser:
SM

Plus surprise morale pumps&drains, AA increasers, CC group immunities...

There's a reason why order has more drains and des decreasers

Engineer, if you're referring to dazzling flash, does not increase cooldowns; they increase cast times. Cooldown increasers affect everything, including instant cast. Cast time increasers just make you take longer to cast an ability.

For example, DoK/WP has a 1s cast time. If an Engineer hits with Dazzling Flash, it now takes 1.5s. Hardly effective given the GCD. If a SL or SH hit with their cooldown increaser, DoK/WP has a 1s cast time, but can't recast for 3s. That's effective.

You're missing interrupt (from skill and turret) that will screw up that 1.5s casttime resetting it once or twice depending on time stamp. And being on recieving end of a stream of interrupts is no joke if you're not a zealot, killed me more times than I'd care to admit.

[CeeJay89]

Spoiler:

Order increasers:
Slayer
Engie,

Interrupt/set back (counter to decreaser):
KOTBS
Engie

Decreaser:
SM

Plus surprise morale pumps&drains, AA increasers, CC group immunities...

There's a reason why order has more drains and des decreasers

Engineer, if you're referring to dazzling flash, does not increase cooldowns; they increase cast times. Cooldown increasers affect everything, including instant cast. Cast time increasers just make you take longer to cast an ability.

For example, DoK/WP has a 1s cast time. If an Engineer hits with Dazzling Flash, it now takes 1.5s. Hardly effective given the GCD. If a SL or SH hit with their cooldown increaser, DoK/WP has a 1s cast time, but can't recast for 3s. That's effective.

You're missing interrupt (from skill and turret) that will screw up that 1.5s casttime resetting it once or twice depending on time stamp. And being on recieving end of a stream of interrupts is no joke if you're not a zealot, killed me more times than I'd care to admit.

Interrupts have nothing to do with cooldown increasers and decreasers. They're not as effective, and claiming they are is silly.

Engineer and Magus both have the same interrupt besides (Flashbang Grenade vs Surge of Insanity), Engineer can just slot a tactic (that few will) to give it the cast-time increaser

[NSKaneda]

Spoiler:

Engineer, if you're referring to dazzling flash, does not increase cooldowns; they increase cast times. Cooldown increasers affect everything, including instant cast. Cast time increasers just make you take longer to cast an ability.

For example, DoK/WP has a 1s cast time. If an Engineer hits with Dazzling Flash, it now takes 1.5s. Hardly effective given the GCD. If a SL or SH hit with their cooldown increaser, DoK/WP has a 1s cast time, but can't recast for 3s. That's effective.

You're missing interrupt (from skill and turret) that will screw up that 1.5s casttime resetting it once or twice depending on time stamp. And being on recieving end of a stream of interrupts is no joke if you're not a zealot, killed me more times than I'd care to admit.

Interrupts have nothing to do with cooldown increasers and decreasers. They're not as effective, and claiming they are is silly.

Engineer and Magus both have the same interrupt besides (Flashbang Grenade vs Surge of Insanity), Engineer can just slot a tactic (that few will) to give it the cast-time increaser

Ok, so increasers are as follow: SL=SH, BO=IB.
Both sides have access to the same tools. Plus SM has single target CD increaser that's mirrored to destro as well.

I'll lay off interrupt game, I use it on both sides and know it to be an effective tool but maybe that's just me.

[puzzolamistica]

as long as destro is winning and still having best classes all arround the game is fine for the community not much to say .
Order need just to ''git gud'' to compensate:
-bo>sm
-mara>wl
-bg>ib
-Magus>engi
-squig>sw/wl
-shamy>am.
Oh and also they have all the best classes for solo roaming and also for small scale and thats why no one want to play orders tanks but ye ye for sure is just about gitting gud .

[CeeJay89]

Spoiler:

You're missing interrupt (from skill and turret) that will screw up that 1.5s casttime resetting it once or twice depending on time stamp. And being on recieving end of a stream of interrupts is no joke if you're not a zealot, killed me more times than I'd care to admit.

Interrupts have nothing to do with cooldown increasers and decreasers. They're not as effective, and claiming they are is silly.

Engineer and Magus both have the same interrupt besides (Flashbang Grenade vs Surge of Insanity), Engineer can just slot a tactic (that few will) to give it the cast-time increaser

Ok, so increasers are as follow: SL=SH, BO=IB.
Both sides have access to the same tools. Plus SM has single target CD increaser that's mirrored to destro as well.

I'll lay off interrupt game, I use it on both sides and know it to be an effective tool but maybe that's just me.

Increasers are SL=SH, and if you're talking about the single target ones (which are mostly a non-factor) then BO's is better too.

BO - 9pt ability "Not in Da Face" - Increases cooldowns on target by 5s for 10s, 20s cooldown. 50% uptime, individual ability.
IB - 3pt tactic "Furious Reprisal" - Increases cooldowns on target by 5s for 5s, 10s cooldown. 50% uptime, requires tactic slot, attached to a knockdown that requires a parry/block, so even if you do use the tactic, your first use only has 2s of effective use because they're knocked down for the other 3s.

Unless I'm missing something, SM has a cast-time increaser, not a cooldown increaser. Again, these are very different things.

[NSKaneda]

Ok, so increasers are as follow: SL=SH, BO=IB.
Both sides have access to the same tools. Plus SM has single target CD increaser that's mirrored to destro as well.

I'll lay off interrupt game, I use it on both sides and know it to be an effective tool but maybe that's just me.

Increasers are SL=SH, and if you're talking about the single target ones (which are mostly a non-factor) then BO's is better too.

BO - 9pt ability "Not in Da Face" - Increases cooldowns on target by 5s for 10s, 20s cooldown. 50% uptime, individual ability.
IB - 3pt tactic "Furious Reprisal" - Increases cooldowns on target by 5s for 5s, 10s cooldown. 50% uptime, requires tactic slot, attached to a knockdown that requires a parry/block, so even if you do use the tactic, your first use only has 2s of effective use because they're knocked down for the other 3s.

Unless I'm missing something, SM has a cast-time increaser, not a cooldown increaser. Again, these are very different things.

IB 3pt tactic combo (would make more sense for it to be tied to shield sweep like on live but there were issues afair) = 7pt BO tactic combo (Big Brawlin+Big Swing).

Not in da face (ST, 20s cooldown, +5s for 10s, requires plan) = Dazzling strike (ST, no CD, +50% for 5s, requires balance)

Am I missing something?

-
in before you repeat that cooldown and cast time increasers are not the same thing: they effectively do same thing, just from opposite ends.

[Farrul]

I believe what really needs to be looked at by the balance team is the versatility aspect of Order tanks to encourage more melee and less ranged on this side.

As a previous veteran of Age of reckoning but new to RoR this is an obvious observation from fresh eyes, Order is filled with shadow warriors & engineers, arch mages, is desperate for a melee wall(tanks).

How to encourage more people to play Order tanks, my opinion:

Knights of the blazing sun should have a solid 2- hand spec like the destro tanks, it's likely boring to be an aura bot s/s. Class needs to be more verstatile and fun to play like their Destro counterpart to encourage more people to roll it and not just organized premade tank ''slaves'' that sacrifices their individual fun for the team(after all, we play games to have fun).

Swordmasters which seems to be one of the least played classes in the entire game(bad thing for a tank class that is desperately needed). Perhaps something more than just a one-trick pony Whispering Wind? Make them truly a fearsome 2 handed tank class as their class fantasy suggests.

IronBreakers, i have no idea. Common enough in tier one with 2 handed axes/hammers but seems to disappear higher tiers.

Meanwhile Black orcs, Black guards and Chosens are plentiful both as 2 hand/ s/s always providing the destro side with the much needed melee wall, no matter if Pug or premade.

This obvsiously creates a balance issue, also if there are less tanks the Order melee dps will suffer as well, less guard and rolled over by destro melee trains by their guarded choppas & squigs, which further encourages Order rolling ranged dps classes.

[CeeJay89]

Ok, so increasers are as follow: SL=SH, BO=IB.
Both sides have access to the same tools. Plus SM has single target CD increaser that's mirrored to destro as well.

I'll lay off interrupt game, I use it on both sides and know it to be an effective tool but maybe that's just me.

Increasers are SL=SH, and if you're talking about the single target ones (which are mostly a non-factor) then BO's is better too.

BO - 9pt ability "Not in Da Face" - Increases cooldowns on target by 5s for 10s, 20s cooldown. 50% uptime, individual ability.
IB - 3pt tactic "Furious Reprisal" - Increases cooldowns on target by 5s for 5s, 10s cooldown. 50% uptime, requires tactic slot, attached to a knockdown that requires a parry/block, so even if you do use the tactic, your first use only has 2s of effective use because they're knocked down for the other 3s.

Unless I'm missing something, SM has a cast-time increaser, not a cooldown increaser. Again, these are very different things.

IB 3pt tactic combo (would make more sense for it to be tied to shield sweep like on live but there were issues afair) = 7pt BO tactic combo (Big Brawlin+Big Swing).

Not in da face (ST, 20s cooldown, +5s for 10s, requires plan) = Dazzling strike (ST, no CD, +50% for 5s, requires balance)

Am I missing something?

Yes...you keep comparing cooldown increasers to cast-time increasers. They are not the same thing. Not in Da Face is NOT an equivalent to Dazzling Strike. Cooldown increasers are better. I'm sorry, I'm not really understanding why this is hard to understand.

Furious Reprisal would be compared to Not in Da Face. They both increase COOLDOWNS. Not in Da Face is much better.

Dazzling Strike would be compared to Big Brawlin' if you like. They both increase CAST-TIMES. Dazzling Strike is better. It's base-line and 50% vs 20%.

However, cast-time increasers aren't gamechangers like COOLDOWN increasers and decreasers. SL and SH is mostly fine, even if SH has a much easier time applying it properly. The problem is in decreasers, where Choppa and BO have vastly superior abilities opposed to SM.

Spoiler:

in before you repeat that cooldown and cast time increasers are not the same thing: they effectively do same thing, just from opposite ends.

Buddy, they're not even close. Cast-time increasers only affect abilities with cast times. Cooldown increasers affect every ability in the game, including instant cast. One affects like two archetypes minimally, while the other affects all archetypes heavily.

Even if you ONLY look at cast-time abilities, there is no ability in the game that a cast-time increaser will increase the cast-time beyond what a cooldown increaser will increase the cooldown.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

[puzzolamistica]

I believe what really needs to be looked at by the balance team is the versatility aspect of Order tanks to encourage more melee and less ranged on this side.

As a previous veteran of Age of reckoning but new to RoR this is an obvious observation from fresh eyes, Order is filled with shadow warriors & engineers, arch mages, is desperate for a melee wall(tanks).

How to encourage more people to play Order tanks, my opinion:

Knights of the blazing sun should have a solid 2- hand spec like the destro tanks, it's likely boring to be an aura bot s/s. Class needs to be more verstatile and fun to play like their Destro counterpart to encourage more people to roll it and not just organized premade tank ''slaves'' that sacrifices their individual fun for the team(after all, we play games to have fun).

Swordmasters which seems to be one of the least played classes in the entire game(bad thing for a tank class that is desperately needed). Perhaps something more than just a one-trick pony Whispering Wind? Make them truly a fearsome 2 handed tank class as their class fantasy suggests.

IronBreakers, i have no idea. Common enough in tier one with 2 handed axes/hammers but seems to disappear higher tiers.

Meanwhile Black orcs, Black guards and Chosens are plentiful both as 2 hand/ s/s always providing the destro side with the much needed melee wall, no matter if Pug or premade.

This obvsiously creates a balance issue, also if there are less tanks the Order melee dps will suffer as well, less guard and rolled over by destro melee trains by their guarded choppas & squigs, which further encourages Order rolling ranged dps classes.

finally someone that understand the problem.
Another problem is that preatty much all destros classes has a spec that make them good in a 6man or for solo roaming while orde dosent have it.
Right now order losing citys because no one lead them, all good city guild are now xrealming on destro but the main problem is not about city but is the fun aspect to play order that at the moent dosent exist.