do we have a balance problem?

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wonshot
Posts: 1193

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#241 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:23 pm

teiloh wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:10 pm
wonshot wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:36 pm And compare the entire list, we will always be stuck in these bracket-biased feeling debates of what is overperforming when in reality it is probably just player skill differences for the most part. Yes Whispering winds could use some love in performing the utility, and rampage could use 2-3sec uptime downgrade. But meh. This will go on till the end of time with one ability being flavor of the month community focus.
That is fair. I think it's worth noting that Destro's win advantage cratered by a good 10%+ percentage points immediately after Morale dump damage was tamed a bit. While it's true that there were a lot of Order pugs, I'm not sure Destro had far fewer - and I'd say Destro pugs certainly fair better than Order ones, and that's a huge issue that might have turned a lot of LazyPeon's influx away in frustration.
But morales have always been a strong suit of destro, look at zealot selfpump, shaman, chosen, blackorc, sorc, and mara morale drains. That was just some of their realmwide advantages.
Like order have the ranged knockdowns, destro have more pulls/faster pulls.
order had the healing modifiers, destro had the incoming healdebuff aura
order has the woundsbuff, destro has the wounds debuffs
highelves has the ini, spirit and whatever else synergy for smallscale, destro has the cooldown theme for greenskins for largescale.
order dps classes are more selfish (rampage makes the slayer penetrate defences) Choppa pull makes the target fly and airborn targets cant defend so everyone on destro get brief undefendable attacks on the choppapulled targets.
Bw gets undefendable fireballs + flashfire. Sorc gets Echo of power as a mix-mirror and the list goes on of how the two realms are different, some are mirroted some are close but not really mirrored.

Some players will like one version for largescale, others will like other close-mirrors for smallscale. Some will play smallscale on a weaksmallscale class and complain about the other realm having a better situational kit, but not look at the whole realm vs realm picture of how each realm plays differently.

Order could arguebly be categories as the ranged selfish stronger realm, where as destro are more of a meleeball utility-group realm. Ofc with exceptions!
On order in warband warfore the knight outgoing healdebuff wants you to push into the healerstack and debuff them, meaning you will want to outflank more. And the destro incoming healdebuff gives you more of a frontal push strategy, simply based on those two healdebuff auras and how they play out.

it is really all about the bigger picture.
I personally had a 3 point system i used for years trying to keep my bias in check for warband warfare:
Damage/healing/mitigation advantage - order winning damage and healing, destro winning mitigation.
Displacements/cc: Destro stronger displacements and aoe control, order stronger singletarget cc.
Morales minigame: Destro winning overall, solarflare as exception

As long as none of the realms were winning on all 3, 2-1 was okayish things were not too bad. right now i honestly think order are close to a 3-1.
Bombling 93BW

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emiliorv
Posts: 1341

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#242 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:31 pm

Naelar wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:21 pm
Onigokko0101 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:49 am
Pandastyle wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:46 am Image

do we have a balance problem?
No man, its only a problem if the other side is zerging and as he know from this thread ORDER NEVER ZERGS AND IS ALWAYS OUTNUMBERED.
It's called 'realm pride' when Order does it.

Oh man, you have to be one of those famous destro forum whiners...LMAO

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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#243 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:36 pm

wonshot wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:23 pm But morales have always been a strong suit of destro, look at zealot selfpump, shaman, chosen, blackorc, sorc, and mara morale drains. That was just some of their realmwide advantages.
Like order have the ranged knockdowns, destro have more pulls/faster pulls.
order had the healing modifiers, destro had the incoming healdebuff aura
order has the woundsbuff, destro has the wounds debuffs
highelves has the ini, spirit and whatever else synergy for smallscale, destro has the cooldown theme for greenskins for largescale.
order dps classes are more selfish (rampage makes the slayer penetrate defences) Choppa pull makes the target fly and airborn targets cant defend so everyone on destro get brief undefendable attacks on the choppapulled targets.
Bw gets undefendable fireballs + flashfire. Sorc gets Echo of power as a mix-mirror and the list goes on of how the two realms are different, some are mirroted some are close but not really mirrored.

Some players will like one version for largescale, others will like other close-mirrors for smallscale. Some will play smallscale on a weaksmallscale class and complain about the other realm having a better situational kit, but not look at the whole realm vs realm picture of how each realm plays differently.

Order could arguebly be categories as the ranged selfish stronger realm, where as destro are more of a meleeball utility-group realm. Ofc with exceptions!
On order in warband warfore the knight outgoing healdebuff wants you to push into the healerstack and debuff them, meaning you will want to outflank more. And the destro incoming healdebuff gives you more of a frontal push strategy, simply based on those two healdebuff auras and how they play out.

it is really all about the bigger picture.
I personally had a 3 point system i used for years trying to keep my bias in check for warband warfare:
Damage/healing/mitigation advantage - order winning damage and healing, destro winning mitigation.
Displacements/cc: Destro stronger displacements and aoe control, order stronger singletarget cc.
Morales minigame: Destro winning overall, solarflare as exception

As long as none of the realms were winning on all 3, 2-1 was okayish things were not too bad. right now i honestly think order are close to a 3-1.
I think in that comparison there, there are a lot of things missing. It's not enough to do a "bullet point" sort of analysis, pairing advantages one for one and simply assuming equivalence. There are many qualitative differences that dilute the Order advantages listed, and inflate the Destro ones.

For example, because of its limited range and how formations usually set up, a Chosen can have a heal debuff aura right on top of everything taking AOE damage. A knight has to push in deep to the healer backline, and even then they are almost always never within range to all be debuffed. In a "blob vs blob" situation all Chosen's victims will be stacked on top of each other by definition - they have the same range and radius - for the Knight, the healers healing the Destro blob will not be. So you are, in effect, looking at 80-90% coverage vs. 15-25% at best, I'd say, and you're sacrificing your guard and pulling them out of the blob to do this.

The heal output "advantage" is imo an attempt to "bullet-pointize" differences so they can easily be rationalized for the purpose of hand-waving away much more real and significant Destro advantages. Realistically, a WP/DOK will want 1. AOE Detaunt 2. Bubble. That leaves Group Cleanse, AP Refresh, and SE/RF regain as three additional options. Discipline is another, which grants perma +8% healing and 6.8% Disrupt. WP Exalted Defenses could in theory be a nice boost to WP healing, but I don't see it in practice (on scoreboards and elsewhere). The Knight tactic likewise requires a really bad Aura to be slotted. I don't see why everything unique Order has needs to be hair-split away from any other general tactic/ability that contributes marginally to an overall calculation of healing/damage traded between groups. A Chosen perma heal debuff aura cancels that Knight buff, quite easily, as their -crit debuff more than cancels Dirty Tricks. Why not replace Focused Mending with say, -10-15% enemy damage? They'd effectively be the same, but we wouldn't be able to resort to the deceptive triteness of "Order heal advantage" anymore. And Destro has many such damage reducers in spades.

Then if we break this down into heal buffs/debuffs period, the DOK has the best incoming heal debuff in the game, while Blackguard and maybe WEs have the best outgoing (no timer vs timer on IB, and BG is far better suited for the job)

For ranged knock down, this was mirrored to Squig. Destro has 1-2 AOE knockdowns (technically) while Order has none. Destro not only has more pulls, but the WL pull is garbage and the Engi pull is in a nerfed line - and Engi magnet has a delay on top of its cast time, making it significantly worse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlkDq1PZEt4

The wounds buff on Order was nerfed to not stack with heal pots anymore. Another Order advantage deleted. Destro still has stacking Wounds debuff with the BG tactic, afaik.

For Sorcs, they benefit hugely from debuff synergy. Magus debuffs their primary damage on a spammable ranged attack - BW gets at best -220 sists at very close range. Based on my calculations and assuming an average battery of resists (620-650 unbuffed; 950-1000 with aura), this can be anywhere from a 15-20% dps increase for Sorc spirit. If you double stack corp debuff with Zeal Sweeping Disgorgement, that's a 34-40% DPS increase for Corporeal.

The High Elf ini stacking was also nerfed and Ini formula was changed. Yet another Order advantage deleted.

Then there are other general advantages worth noting: Destro has 6 or 7 more speed debuffs than Order. They not only have better morale builders but generally better morales. They have two races with two classes of model sizes advantageously distributed with class archetype. They have better and more CD reducers and better positioned and more CD increasers. They have more and better absorb buffs. They have more and better CC. They have more and better debuffs and utility. They have more and better damage increasers and reducers, everything from AA haste to AA damage to Infernal Gift and even Sham Absorb bubbles.

In exchange, Order has things like Furious Mending, which heals a WL and its pet for a whopping 20 healed per second, and two entire tactics dedicated to managing PVE aggro, and two abilities that transfer aggro. Runepriests have crap like Grimnir's Fury. The list goes on and on.

Then there are "minor" details like Witch Elf kisses proccing much more damage and effects over time than WH bullets, Magus single DoT having no cooldown vs Engi 10, Magus frontal DoT being a cone rather than Engi line, etc etc.
Last edited by teiloh on Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wonshot
Posts: 1193

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#244 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:54 pm

Hence why i said, someone needs to make a full list for this debate. I cant be bothered, and whoever will attempt will miss a point or someone in the community will disagree with the list and then we are back to taking turns stepping up the mic saying our piece and the cycle continues :D
Bombling 93BW

User avatar
teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#245 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:56 pm

wonshot wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:54 pm Hence why i said, someone needs to make a full list for this debate. I cant be bothered, and whoever will attempt will miss a point or someone in the community will disagree with the list and then we are back to taking turns stepping up the mic saying our piece and the cycle continues :D
I think I will work on a Google Doc with a few others.

balvor877
Suspended
Posts: 278

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#246 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:59 pm

teiloh wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:36 pm I think in that comparison there, there are a lot of things missing. It's not enough to do a "bullet point" sort of analysis, pairing advantages one for one and simply assuming equivalence. There are many qualitative differences that dilute the Order advantages listed, and inflate the Destro ones.

For example, because of its limited range and how formations usually set up, a Chosen can have a heal debuff aura right on top of everything taking AOE damage. A knight has to push in deep to the healer backline, and even then they are almost always never within range to all be debuffed. In a "blob vs blob" situation all Chosen's victims will be stacked on top of each other by definition - they have the same range and radius - for the Knight, the healers healing the Destro blob will not be. So you are, in effect, looking at 80-90% coverage vs. 15-25% at best, I'd say, and you're sacrificing your guard and pulling them out of the blob to do this.

The heal output "advantage" is imo an attempt to "bullet-pointize" differences so they can easily be rationalized for the purpose of hand-waving away much more real and significant Destro advantages. Realistically, a WP/DOK will want 1. AOE Detaunt 2. Bubble. That leaves Group Cleanse, AP Refresh, and SE/RF regain as three additional options. Discipline is another, which grants perma +8% healing and 6.8% Disrupt. WP Exalted Defenses could in theory be a nice boost to WP healing, but I don't see it in practice (on scoreboards and elsewhere). The Knight tactic likewise requires a really bad Aura to be slotted. I don't see why everything unique Order has needs to be hair-split away from any other general tactic/ability that contributes marginally to an overall calculation of healing/damage traded between groups. A Chosen perma heal debuff aura cancels that Knight buff, quite easily, as their -crit debuff more than cancels Dirty Tricks. Why not replace Focused Mending with say, -10-15% enemy damage? They'd effectively be the same, but we wouldn't be able to resort to the deceptive triteness of "Order heal advantage" anymore. And Destro has many such damage reducers in spades.

Then if we break this down into heal buffs/debuffs period, the DOK has the best incoming heal debuff in the game, while Blackguard and maybe WEs have the best outgoing (no timer vs timer on IB, and BG is far better suited for the job)

For ranged knock down, this was mirrored to Squig. Destro has 1-2 AOE knockdowns (technically) while Order has none. Destro not only has more pulls, but the WL pull is garbage and the Engi pull is in a nerfed line - and Engi magnet has a delay on top of its cast time, making it significantly worse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlkDq1PZEt4

The wounds buff on Order was nerfed to not stack with heal pots anymore. Another Order advantage deleted. Destro still has stacking Wounds debuff with the BG tactic, afaik.

For Sorcs, they benefit hugely from debuff synergy. Magus debuffs their primary damage on a spammable ranged attack - BW gets at best -220 sists at very close range. Based on my calculations and assuming an average battery of resists (620-650 unbuffed; 950-1000 with aura), this can be anywhere from a 15-20% dps increase for Sorc spirit. If you double stack corp debuff with Zeal Sweeping Disgorgement, that's a 34-40% DPS increase for Corporeal.

The High Elf ini stacking was also nerfed and Ini formula was changed. Yet another Order advantage deleted.

Then there are other general advantages worth noting: Destro has 6 or 7 more speed debuffs than Order. They not only have better morale builders but generally better morales. They have two races with two classes of model sizes advantageously distributed with class archetype. They have better and more CD reducers and better positioned and more CD increasers. They have more and better absorb buffs. They have more and better CC. They have more and better debuffs and utility. They have more and better damage increasers and reducers.

Then there are "minor" details like Witch Elf kisses proccing much more damage and effects over time than WH bullets, Magus single DoT having no cooldown vs Engi 10, Magus frontal DoT being a cone rather than Engi line, etc etc.
Nice write down. I wanna add the dual whielding classes with free 15% parry (destro: DoK, WE, Mara, Choppa - order: Slayer and WH), which means more proccing, also a DoK tactic that let covenants proc 15% more often and a shaman tactic for a damage add on the next two hits.

lyncher12
Posts: 542

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#247 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:01 pm

engi has an aoe knockdown

sighy
Posts: 259

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#248 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:05 pm

teiloh wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:36 pmThen there are "minor" details like Witch Elf kisses proccing much more damage and effects over time than WH bullets,
WH can get bullets on a whole wb, with Dragon Gun or apply it right away when swapping targets, while WE has to wait out icd and pray to rnjesus. Which one of the two is better depends on personal preference, build and setting.

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Naelar
Posts: 296

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#249 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:06 pm

Sponn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:05 pm I find it interesting that the City records and Fort records seems to be null when destro are winning (whining)?
If you mean this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42111
the guy that was compiling it had stated he wasn't going to be on as much for a while, and asked for help continuing to compile the results. I haven't seen him logged in for at least a couple weeks.

sighy
Posts: 259

Re: do we have a balance problem?

Post#250 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:14 pm

balvor877 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:59 pm Nice write down. I wanna add the dual whielding classes with free 15% parry (destro: DoK, WE, Mara, Choppa - order: Slayer and WH), which means more proccing, also a DoK tactic that let covenants proc 15% more often and a shaman tactic for a damage add on the next two hits.
Technically everyone has 0% against a slayer. Makes WE feel like naked teenagers at Crystal Lake trying to outstab Jason Voorhees.

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