Total lack of WH versatility

[ZEDE]

Playing a Sorc as well, yes i have crit 35% from gear, 35% if i'm running my Dark magic hot but then i'm taking a potential 35% damage to myself every time i use it at that level and of course practically 0 cc or escape abilities (unless running away slightly faster is classed as escape, or a root that breaks if you cough) so needs to be a balance somewhere with classes that have high crit rates and i've learn't balance is a funny thing to play around with on this server and i'm too not sure what the devs may potentially take way from an increae eof crit %

Hell, I'm a WE of course i want more damage if you give it to me free of charge but I'm not really sure if the WE\WH needs a damage increase but something a bit more subtle. I think the classes work generally well just want to avoid a "rework" of the class.

You're right, too frank an up dps would lead to new imbalances and therefore a new circle of nerf / up ... etc.
I sincerely believe that improved tools could change our lives, my main concern being survivability.
as said previously: to survive properly we invest too much point in defense to the detriment of the offensive, resulting in a drop in dps making us ineffective in a large majority of cases.
Conversely, when we optimize the dps survivability is in free fall.
it's too straightforward and too radical in terms of talent trees.

it is this lack of flexibility that we lack.

[Tabelrel]

Zede, I'm not sure about the survivability, maybe its because i largely played a Sorc i appreciate the WE's and i guess WH's box of get out of jail free cards. On live where i did play a WE there was no Elixr of Shadows so you only had stealth which was largely a broken mechanic so do like the RoR implementation of EoS to stealth.

I only really do solo roam and not play in WB's so i'm quite specific about when to attack and only when i'm fairly certain about an exit plan and maybe not indicative of all play styles. Cities yes, generally they are a mess as in a pug, but when you do luckily fall from your solo queue into an organised wb with proper guard and heals you can even as a class that is not meant to be front line melee toe to toe kind of fighter put out good damage/kills.

I don't want to get into that WE\WH conversation and i know that is not the intention of your post but from my experience fighting WH's what they do excel at is that middle game parry match, they may not have that opening burst of the WE (although if you get opened on by Krubs thats a moot point) but they can certainly survive and win a prolonged fight with other melee clases. Getting kited by a shammy/am etc well that's a problem for both classes and maybe the GCD unlinking of some abilities would help that or some small change like disarm without the need for parry.

I guess you could increase armour but how much armour should a guy in a felt hat and a gal in a bikini get

Of course we do have the best survival mechanic of all classes in the game and that is the ability to decide when we fight and when we want to end it if its not going our way

[Koha]

I would also point out that WHs only have 2 abilities that do non-physical damage excluding openers. WEs have 4 and this gives them edge in this respect. Do not understand why our dot finisher are not Spirit damage, at least one of them could be.

This would allow low-geared WHs to play in it while they gear up.

And shared cooldown is a pain in the back. It sucks big time.

Indeed, bolstered WE are pretty decent with kisses procs, witch brew and openers. All are non physical and do not scale with strength / toughness.
Another thing WH can’t do.

[MMXX43]

anyway it is outside the debate, we are not in the wh VS we ...
The goal is not to get more dega than We.
A redesign of the tools or the capacities of the two classes (notably on resistance by tool or inerant / passive) could be beneficial for everyone.
We can clearly see that currently the wb "roll" quite safely in their internal mechanisms, there is no great defensive stress about the backline heals, apart from large frontline penetrations where the tanks must have to maneuver to defend their Bline ...
Most of the time the heals defend themselves, among themselves, and in the worst case the dps casters finish cleaning.
We clearly lack impact and survivability, so we're just details of the game, boring mosquitoes, fragile like mosquitoes.

Is it tho ? Why is the class comparison and the fact that destro mirrors are polised and have more tools always ommitted is beyond me .

[Cobra81]

One of the main problems you are seeing is that Shaman are ridiculously OP in small scale 1v1, and the lakes are full on them because of this. Shaman should fear WH in the lakes but they don't, which is a big failure of the general gameplay as it takes away one of the main roles of WH from the game, which is to patrol the lakes, pick of stragglers, kill box runners etc. You can be sure AM and any other Solo class (except tanks) on Order side look out for WE popping on them and generally stand a good chance of being killed. So if the Dev's finally get round to balancing Shaman somehow and bring WH up to the level of WE then you will see WH role in lakes being more important. It doesn't do much for Warband play but at least they generally have an important role.

100% agree, when a shama is around then no one will open a fight.

Played both today again and 1 thing, that i haven´t took into account is, the WE has dual wield. That means 2 daggers hitting your target with 1 style while WH does nothing with his pistol, only when using accus, that means only 1 hit.
So: 1 Shama around and you will kill nohting, means less threaten classes as targets for WE + this "Kiss" vs "Bullet" mechanic is already told + Main+Offhand vs Mainhand only and there is still a doubt which class has the upper hand?

Atm you see Shamas and squi en masse and both are unkillable as a WH, even with stealth attacks.

[sighy]

From what i've readI think Ywhi had perhaps the best suggstions so far and unlinking some of the GCD's would be a step in the right direction. For instance to tackle an AM and be able to charge/escape and also apply EoC would be a step in the right direction, conversely for the WH equivalent, shammie i guess.

Personally, I'm happy with th ST damage, I don't expect to be able to burn every target down and going too extreme in that route will quickly bring the WH\WE to a WL conversation and being too op. A 50% crit rate, i think would be way too high and remember even back in the WE\WH glory days at the start of live they had no where near that crit rate (if i remember the WE had an extra max 15% crit rate from Frenzied Mayhem and Increased pain built crit % as well, 5% i think) and were still nerfed down because of it so an extra 50% on top of gearing crit is most probably too much but just my opinion as that would put both WE\WH way above Sorc\BW crit output with none of the damage mechanic they have.

What i have noticed on RoR vs live and i presume this applies to both WH\WE is while i may have the inherent damage output the delivery of the damage seems so much slower. Is that an internal GCD thing some where or just we don't yet have the high speed weaponary we used to have. I know there are higher speed daggers\pistols\swords out there from influence rewards but they lack the stats of the higher level weapons. Is that why you see so many WH's in predominantly Warlord to get the auto attach haste, when they may prefer a 5 piece sov build if they had faster attacks and We's in Mom\SS builds when another build would be preferable due to the meta of the game?

I believe that Frenzied mayhem was +% crit chance instead of +%damage. There have been long comprehensive lists, in older threads, which recounted many of the direct and indirect nerfs to the pairing, which hurt both. A reocurring thing being globally toned down gear and spread out, diminished or taken away utilities/qol.


Overall currently I'd say WH comparably struggles more, because they compete for the same slot with 2h slayers, asws and wls, as compared to destro's 2h choppa and dps dok(not nearly as common), for the we.

[sighy]

One of the main problems you are seeing is that Shaman are ridiculously OP in small scale 1v1, and the lakes are full on them because of this. Shaman should fear WH in the lakes but they don't, which is a big failure of the general gameplay as it takes away one of the main roles of WH from the game, which is to patrol the lakes, pick of stragglers, kill box runners etc. You can be sure AM and any other Solo class (except tanks) on Order side look out for WE popping on them and generally stand a good chance of being killed. So if the Dev's finally get round to balancing Shaman somehow and bring WH up to the level of WE then you will see WH role in lakes being more important. It doesn't do much for Warband play but at least they generally have an important role.

100% agree, when a shama is around then no one will open a fight.

Played both today again and 1 thing, that i haven´t took into account is, the WE has dual wield. That means 2 daggers hitting your target with 1 style while WH does nothing with his pistol, only when using accus, that means only 1 hit.
So: 1 Shama around and you will kill nohting, means less threaten classes as targets for WE + this "Kiss" vs "Bullet" mechanic is already told + Main+Offhand vs Mainhand only and there is still a doubt which class has the upper hand?

Atm you see Shamas and squi en masse and both are unkillable as a WH, even with stealth attacks.

I think the kisses are a bit of "greener grass, in neighbor's lawn" situation. Yes sustained st dps is higher, but you can't apply your 50% outgoing heal debuff to a whole wb or apply it on demand, when swapping targets.

Ofc i know how it feels to jump a solo runie and achieve absolutely nothing followed getting punted away. Shield wp(dok too) doesn't care about your heal reduction, because his heals are classified as leech or some such. So i can relate

[Rapzel]

One of the main problems you are seeing is that Shaman are ridiculously OP in small scale 1v1, and the lakes are full on them because of this. Shaman should fear WH in the lakes but they don't, which is a big failure of the general gameplay as it takes away one of the main roles of WH from the game, which is to patrol the lakes, pick of stragglers, kill box runners etc. You can be sure AM and any other Solo class (except tanks) on Order side look out for WE popping on them and generally stand a good chance of being killed. So if the Dev's finally get round to balancing Shaman somehow and bring WH up to the level of WE then you will see WH role in lakes being more important. It doesn't do much for Warband play but at least they generally have an important role.

100% agree, when a shama is around then no one will open a fight.

Played both today again and 1 thing, that i haven´t took into account is, the WE has dual wield. That means 2 daggers hitting your target with 1 style while WH does nothing with his pistol, only when using accus, that means only 1 hit.
So: 1 Shama around and you will kill nohting, means less threaten classes as targets for WE + this "Kiss" vs "Bullet" mechanic is already told + Main+Offhand vs Mainhand only and there is still a doubt which class has the upper hand?

Atm you see Shamas and squi en masse and both are unkillable as a WH, even with stealth attacks.

I think the kisses are a bit of "greener grass, in neighbor's lawn" situation. Yes sustained st dps is higher, but you can't apply your 50% outgoing heal debuff to a whole wb or apply it on demand, when swapping targets.

Ofc i know how it feels to jump a solo runie and achieve absolutely nothing followed getting punted away. Shield wp(dok too) doesn't care about your heal reduction, because his heals are classified as leech or some such. So i can relate

1vs1 dps Shaman has more predators than dps AM, how are we going to solve that guys?

[Atropik]

If you think Vindication is so good, lets give feedback to devs to swtich Vindication to WE and Taste of Blood to WH.

I personally would do so, if Magus was on order side and destro had engi, but...

100% agree, when a shama is around then no one will open a fight.

Played both today again and 1 thing, that i haven´t took into account is, the WE has dual wield. That means 2 daggers hitting your target with 1 style while WH does nothing with his pistol, only when using accus, that means only 1 hit.
So: 1 Shama around and you will kill nohting, means less threaten classes as targets for WE + this "Kiss" vs "Bullet" mechanic is already told + Main+Offhand vs Mainhand only and there is still a doubt which class has the upper hand?

Atm you see Shamas and squi en masse and both are unkillable as a WH, even with stealth attacks.

y'd better ask on how it works before coming with complains. This game recognizes only 3 weapon masteries - dual wield, great weapon, and S+B(book/chalice). Since WE/WH both share dual wield they have a special formula on how their attacks are modified. Pistol performs exactly the same way WEs 2d dagger does. As long as you class carrying dual wield - the only thing that matters - main hand weapon dps/speed, offhand weapon dps will pop automatically only as "white" aa damage with 40% proc. chance.

So pistol is only the picture/animation, it can be replaced with mace, staff, spear, bow, chicken, machinegun, someones head on a pike, bazooka and will perform in exactly the same way 2d dagger on WE does, as long as they are 1h and devs are able and willing to draw it out.

[Atropik]

I would also point out that WHs only have 2 abilities that do non-physical damage excluding openers. WEs have 4 and this gives them edge in this respect. Do not understand why our dot finisher are not Spirit damage, at least one of them could be.

This would allow low-geared WHs to play in it while they gear up.

And shared cooldown is a pain in the back. It sucks big time.

Why do you even look so deep, mate? Does it even matter which dmg type Fervor/Eb has? it used to share like 3% of you overall dps no matter if you are 40/40 or 40/90rr. Or you complaining about witchbrew is corp and Bal is not, well, there are some reasons for it, - BaL can crit is one of them.

Again buffing both classes is not needed , we is more than fine, its the wh that needs tuning up to the damage lvls of WE, buffing both will just sustain the unbalance between 2 supposed mirrors.

Of course, this is not you, but your class is underperforming, of that im sure.