Archmage/Shaman

[NSKaneda]

So i cannot speak about abilities nerf/up but put simply the fact than NSKaneda said before me :

This and blanket nerf on hybrid healing forces AM/SMH to be something they were never intended to be: pure heal/pure dps.

So what's the fact, AM is an hybrid class ?

They used to be hybrid healers and best in game at that (RP/Zeal int/wp switch was added to the game after months of forum whining to make them up to par with am/shm mechanic as it used to be back then).

Their skills still support hybrid playstyle and their (reworked by Aza) mechanic still points at it but slows it down and forces you to stay in healing/dps for as long as you can. Their survivability was only enhanced by those changes (less price to pay for screwing a rotation up) trading off utility and versatility for it. Going for the class specific flow of switching between two states now is mediocre at best but really obsolete in any competitive environment.

That, of course, is my subjective view on the matter.

[Ysaran]

Inititally these classes where desigend as some sort of hybrid. Most gear had both int and wp for instance. As it did not work, the hybrid concept got scrapped and gear became more fcused on a specific role.

Yes, it is ok of course, i think like u said this descision was the result of numbers of experiences.

But High Magic is clearly based for an hybrid class. So it is on the game since a long way, why doesn't change it ?

It was changed one year and half ago. They are trying to figure out a better mechanic and how to implement it. since they work on this project for free even the smallest things can actually require a lot of time

[Ysaran]

My shaman wasn't born at Aza's time so what i'm proposing might be nothing new.
An idea for the AM/Shaman mechanics could be like this: you can build both healing and damage mechanics at the same time but every time you use a healing the healing mechanic will decrease by one and every time you use a damage mechanics your damage mechanic will decrease by one.
For example:
you start from 0|0 (healing|damage)
you cast a heal, 0|0 ->0|1
you cast another heal, 0|1 -> 0|2
then you cast a damage, 0|2 -> 1|1
you cast another damage, 1|1 -> 2|0
and so on

Spamming healing/damage will deplet healing/damagig resource leaving you weakened, like now. But it wouldn't take you 10 GCDs to go from 5|0 to 0|5

[Nekkma]

Inititally these classes where desigend as some sort of hybrid. Most gear had both int and wp for instance. As it did not work, the hybrid concept got scrapped and gear became more fcused on a specific role.

Yes, it is ok of course, i think like u said this descision was the result of numbers of experiences.

But High Magic is clearly based for an hybrid class. So it is on the game since a long way, why doesn't change it ?

It was changed one year and half ago. They are trying to figure out a better mechanic and how to implement it. since they work on this project for free even the smallest things can actually require a lot of time

no, it was changed with the sov redesign 10 years ago.

[ByzantineTime]

But I don't know if you watch shield doks, those guys are completely broken, they get damage as a dps class ( in numbers ) , and heal 2-3 times more than everyone else. ( not sure if their mirror shield wp as broken as them )

I don't necessarily disagree, but it's a different discussion.

The problem I see here is that people keep getting defensive about their class/faction and use one imbalance to excuse another. That's not how it works. If we want to have a serious discussion, we need to look past our own biases and admit things are imbalanced, even it's about our own faction or class.

But what is so imbalanced about shaman?
Shaman and Am are weak btw, because they have gimped class mechanic that weakens their spells compared to all other classes in the game.

As I mentioned in my previous comment read it again, and you will understand.
any range engineer / magus does 100% better sniping than am/sham lol.

I don't mind being nerfed if needed but sham/am are far from op, in fact they are the weakest healers from all.
Wp/Doks are broken, shielded doks complete broken, they are far sub par, even doks in weak healing gear compared to a shaman will heal more, you gotta nerf them and fix the sham/am class mechanic if you want to see a balance.

[Ysaran]

Yes, it is ok of course, i think like u said this descision was the result of numbers of experiences.

But High Magic is clearly based for an hybrid class. So it is on the game since a long way, why doesn't change it ?

It was changed one year and half ago. They are trying to figure out a better mechanic and how to implement it. since they work on this project for free even the smallest things can actually require a lot of time

no, it was changed with the sov redesign 10 years ago.

One and a half years ago Shaman/AM class was reworked, more or less the same period of Aza's (in)famous Q&A, pretty sure about it

[Sulorie]

They are tanky. Whether that survivability comes from HP, absorb shields, lifetaps, etc. is not relevant at all. All those things increase effective health pool and should be regarded accordingly. To further compound the problem AM/Shaman also has AP drain and AM has some of the strongest utility options in game, for example a 5 second silence.

The "counters" you listed mean nothing without context, but also fundamentally miss the point. There's no reason AM/Shaman should have DPS that rivals dedicated DPS classes, while having none of the drawbacks said DPS classes have, while at the same time having huge advantages over said classes in the form of very strong self-healing and utility.

I expected more substance from a user with 5k+ posts. You sound like the umteenth AM/Shaman who is trying to find excuses for why it's acceptable they're hopelessly imbalanced in small-scale.

Oh, I can do the same. I expect you to educate yourself on the skills of classes you talk about. ;^)

Balance Essence was good on live, because there was a tactic to reduce its cast time to match the dps of Radiant Lance. This tactic is gone, which luckily frees a tactic slot but dps lifetap spec in that sense is gone.
The only lifetap spec to exist now for heal AM is Energy of Vaul.

The somewhat only reliable healing in dps spec is their lifeleech dot, which is easily countered in a group fight but in 1on1 it is strong. The other heals are not worth the gcd the moment you or your heal target got a healdebuff.

When you lack ap, you can or can get cleanse(d) or use ap pot. This sounds again like some lone wolf issues.

The strongest utility you say? A 5 sec silence? Let me give you some perspective.
1. it's not core, you spec 9+1 mastery points for it
2. other classes get 4 sec silence as core skill, 1 sec less, no big deal for the greatly reduced cost
3. immunity is based on duration for this kind of CC, so 50sec immunity afterwards
4. what do you say about 6sec stagger? with silence you can at least move, you know? a bit higher price but a lot more useful overall, as you can use it to catch running players and it is multi use on all classes, not only caster
5. oh no, #2 and #4 are on the same class, those must be super OP
6. due to changes to skill trees, the standard roaming small scale spec can't get the silence anymore

I don't know how you measure dps but there must be something wrong with it, when you come to that conclusion. Do you look at scoreboards or how do you quantify their performance compared to other classes?

Small scale is not 1vs1, it never was. Small scale is 2-6man play, in a crowded rvr zone I would even count 12man play as rather small.
All advantages of both classes are leveled within a group, where dedicated dps classes have the support they lack while being alone.

[Caduceus]

Balance Essence was good on live, because there was a tactic to reduce its cast time to match the dps of Radiant Lance. This tactic is gone, which luckily frees a tactic slot but dps lifetap spec in that sense is gone.
The only lifetap spec to exist now for heal AM is Energy of Vaul.

The somewhat only reliable healing in dps spec is their lifeleech dot, which is easily countered in a group fight but in 1on1 it is strong. The other heals are not worth the gcd the moment you or your heal target got a healdebuff.

You're treating this issue like it is one-dimensional and only about self-healing/lifetaps.

It isn't.

Lifetap is an issue, clearly. Transfer Force easily deals over 2k damage, with 150% self healing makes for a delta of 5k damage for the cost of one GCD, likely making it the strongest ability in the game.

And self-healing, while minor, works to compound the problem further. Lambent Aura has 1700 healing base, which is straight-up gained through prehotting. It's free. If that is a "waste of a GCD" (it clearly isn't) then give all DPS classes such abilities to self-heal. It's roughly the equivalent of an extra RvR potion, without a cooldown. Is an RvR potion a waste of a GCD?

Ontop of that we have Shield of Saphery. Another ~1500 points of damage (much more if we take into account mitigation and inability to be crit). That's roughly equivalent to an Absorb pot, refreshable every 20 seconds.

Add further the ability to silence for 5 seconds, AP draining, having two detaunts, cleanse, etc. Not to mention a 3600 shield M1.

Some of these things make sense in the hands of a healer, which are inherently defensive, but not in the hands of a damage dealer that enjoys this level of survivability and utility.

What does AM have to sacrifice for this? Nothing. Their damage may not surpass that of dedicated DPS classes, but it is at least comparable.

There is no way a small disparity in damage (if any) can justify the insane amount of defensive utility that AM (and also Shaman) receive. This should be obvious to anyone. And if you want to make the argument that the game isn't about small-scale, then fine, make it, but lets not sit here and pretend these classes are balanced in small-scale when they are clearly not.

Small scale is not 1vs1, it never was. Small scale is 2-6man play, in a crowded rvr zone I would even count 12man play as rather small.
All advantages of both classes are leveled within a group, where dedicated dps classes have the support they lack while being alone.

AM/Shaman are the absolute top of the food chain when it comes to small-scale skirmishing, so however you wish to redefine small-scale, you cannot avoid what is obvious.

[ByzantineTime]

Balance Essence was good on live, because there was a tactic to reduce its cast time to match the dps of Radiant Lance. This tactic is gone, which luckily frees a tactic slot but dps lifetap spec in that sense is gone.
The only lifetap spec to exist now for heal AM is Energy of Vaul.

The somewhat only reliable healing in dps spec is their lifeleech dot, which is easily countered in a group fight but in 1on1 it is strong. The other heals are not worth the gcd the moment you or your heal target got a healdebuff.

What does AM have to sacrifice for this? Nothing. Their damage may not surpass that of dedicated DPS classes, but it is at least comparable.

There is no way a small disparity in damage (if any) can justify the insane amount of defensive utility that AM (and also Shaman) receive. This should be obvious to anyone. And if you want to make the argument that the game isn't about small-scale, then fine, make it, but lets not sit here and pretend these classes are balanced in small-scale when they are clearly not.

Small scale is not 1vs1, it never was. Small scale is 2-6man play, in a crowded rvr zone I would even count 12man play as rather small.
All advantages of both classes are leveled within a group, where dedicated dps classes have the support they lack while being alone.

AM/Shaman are the absolute top of the food chain when it comes to small-scale skirmishing, so however you wish to redefine small-scale, you cannot avoid what is obvious.

It's not comparable! if you play your am/shaman as defensive dps your dps sucks!! period, you can't kill anyone besides perhaps offensive tanks and other dps classes, you won't kill healers, unless they are very squishy and you're lucky. I don't think you even play the class, I think you died to shams/ams and you claim they are OP. it's a gimped class because of flawed class mechanic you are weaker than rest of the classes that is a fact.

The only reason AM/Sham top DPS meters is when they play *Glass Cannon build*, in *Glass Cannon build* you cannot *Heal* at all!!, and your DPS isn't even that good, you don't have any burst as a normal DPS class, play any dps class, and then dps with AM/SHam and you will see how gimped you're. The *only reason* they top DPS CHARTS, because DOTS have a high duration, so they deal damage over time, so what? 1 heal 2 heals and it's countered, yet it shows on the scoreboard, useless numbers.

What needs to be done is WP/DOKS very broken & op right now, best healer in game, they need to be nerfed for others to shine or first of all fix am/sham class mechanic and let them be hybrids, like intended, my opinion at least. Shield DOK most broken class in this game as we are speaking, it's not mentioned anywhere because it is not a ranged class.

[Caduceus]

It's not comparable! if you play your am/shaman as defensive dps your dps sucks!! period, you can't kill anyone besides perhaps offensive tanks and other dps classes, you won't kill healers, unless they are very squishy and you're lucky. I don't think you even play the class, I think you died to shams/ams and you claim they are OP. it's a gimped class because of flawed class mechanic you are weaker than rest of the classes that is a fact.

The only reason AM/Sham top DPS meters is when they play *Glass Cannon build*, in *Glass Cannon build* you cannot *Heal* at all!!, and your DPS isn't even that good, you don't have any burst as a normal DPS class, play any dps class, and then dps with AM/SHam and you will see how gimped you're. The *only reason* they top DPS CHARTS, because DOTS have a high duration, so they deal damage over time, so what? 1 heal 2 heals and it's countered, yet it shows on the scoreboard, useless numbers.

This is clearly false, as nearly all the things I listed are available to every AM by default. Shamans have an equivalent for most.

In other words, even a purely DPS specced AM has access to most of these abilities, greatly improving their survivability far beyond what most DPS classes get, at no significant trade-off.

I don't think you even play the class, I think you died to shams/ams and you claim they are OP. it's a gimped class because of flawed class mechanic you are weaker than rest of the classes that is a fact.

False. I actually play AM, but not Shaman.