Archmage/Shaman

[Bozzax]

We already have multiple classes with zero skill mechanics why one more and make the game less interesting?

[Arbich]

@Cad

Since you have taken up the judge and moderator role

What classes do you play above rr70 and above vanq?

SM, SW, AM, KotBS and Sorc.

Also have Magus and Engi at CR40.

I normally would not mention it, because I don't think it makes my arguments any worse or better, but since you asked, and since apparently there is some doubt about my experience level...

You tried to bring "arguments" over multiple pages now, but didn´t explain your premise (rdps > mdps). I don´t think you can, which means everyone can put your whole "argumentation" into the bin. But you can try... It will be a minority opinion. So to take you serious, you have to explain how you came to this conclusion when we see empirically its not the case.

[ByzantineTime]

1) Lambent Aura -> 1k health over 15 sec -> 66HP per sec claps so broken!!!

2)2.4k HEAL in case it crits yadda yadda lets go with your math, 2.4k heal over 24 sec -> 100 hp per sec -> wow so broken, you're such a strong healer!!!

wow those heals in glass cannon build are so OP and Broken I am not Sure how anyone can OVER COME THIS!!
NO SINGLE CLASS COMES CLOSE TO THIS according to you hahaha

More snide comments without substance.

Lets put your own numbers into perspective then.

For 45 renown points you can buy 3 ranks of Regeneration. How much health regeneration does this 45 renown point investment give you? 28 HP per second.

How does 66 HP per second sound now? And 100 HP per second?

~Fin.

And to your city point, yeah no **** mate, you have no AOE, and nothing else, just 4 dots and 1 burst with a big cooldown with the tactic, that every "gc am" has, it's complete crap dps, the numbers come only from spamming the dots and dealing overtime damage, which is completely useless by being countered from 1-2 hots. As I said and I say again, play a real DPS class and you will see the difference why u are so useless as dps.

Numbers aren't everything. The truth is most AoE damage shows up very fancy on damage boards, but in reality a lot of that damage tends to be fluff. If you wish to ignore the value of ST burst then it says more about your experience than about mine.

Anyway, I don't know what you thought my point was, but I never sought to make the point that DPS AM was good in city, so; moot point.

KEG engineer from my experience as a shaman, is much much much stronger than any "glass cannon am dpsers" it heals and does much more damage, period. You clearly never fought against one on order side, so I'm telling you this from experience.

That must be happening in your imagination then, because I gave you the numbers and they don't back up what you're saying.

You also have quite an atittude for someone who brings so little substance to the table.

4) No one is trying to discredit you personally, I have nothing against you personally, I'm just saying you are way off, probably lack of knowledge + experience saying ams/shamans broken, people that say it are just ignorant that is a fact. This Class is In Fact weak right now because of the broken mechanic, try to out heal a WP anywhere good luck with that, even if you have BIS gear and that WP with blue weapons he'll out heal you.

First off, I've engaged with you in a serious manner, and you've thrown mud in return, so make no pretensions.

Second, you've consistently ignored the fact that my arguments about AM/Shaman strengths are aimed at small-scale specifically. So I don't know who you are arguing with here. It's not me.

First of all, don't say numbers aren't everything where all you do is talk about numbers, that makes no sense mate.

Now,

You mentioned Am/Sham are OP, and I'm telling you over and over again you clearly don't read what I write, they are not OP!!!!
The defensive build survive, it's not DPS build, the DPS build in it SUCKSS!!! just dots + heal, you won't kill anyone not alone!!!! Heal not good either, and damage good for solo only!!!
Glass cannon build, You can't heal !!!! (unless you think you can keep people up with a 60hp per sec hot )
and you can't do good damage either, just dots + 1 burst spell that's it, other DPS CLASSES ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THIS!!! + no aoe.
You can just snipe people in zergs, you can't win 1v1, depends on knockback and fast nuke, that's it, it's not a good ROAMING BUILD!!!! and there are other sniping classes which do much better job AKA MAGUS AND ENG... SO AGAIN NOT OP BROKEN CLASS.

and last.. if you play a healer, you are gimped because mechanic is BROKEN, You're weaker than rest of the healing buddies. That's it mate, end of discussion. You can decide to address those points above, with good logical discussion, and no mate comparing a useless renown skill, with an actual healing spell isn't a good argument whatsoever, how about I argue that warlord chest piece give me hp regen and compare it to a heal spell bro?
and if you can't no need to reply Have a good night!

P.S. I fought both AMS and KEG ENGIS in all builds, and KEG ENGIS > any build AM.

[Fey]

I mained AM on live, and Shaman on RoR. If you think they're OP, I got nothing. I tried to think of something, but I can't.

[Bozzax]

Mmm I think part of the problem is ppl not realising AM/shmy building/gearing 1v1 obviously has the edge in any situation where they face enemies built/geared for wb/group/rvr in small numbers.

Same goes for most (a few can’t) classes that go all out survivalist example 1v1 SM, Chosen, WL, MRD comes to mind and there are plenty more that are very good

Gear required to make it wrk is a tad lower on a ranged class tho which also makes AM/Shmy more accessible and evidently more in numbers. I also think BW/Sorcs being very weak in this setting adds to the numbers.

Strong yes op no

[AxelF]

This thread is a classic example of why balance discussions are virtually pointless, people who main the class just repeating 'we're not op, hands off my toys', and people who play against the class in question calling for a nerf. Never going to achieve any consensus.

[Fenris78]

Run Away needs to break on ability use

This please.

Or remove it altogether, or reduce the chance to trigger, or reduce the speed boost.

Its absolutely not balanced or normal (not even desirable unless you love to troll) to be able to kite a full group to death, when no other class in the game could do such thing, saving maybe WE/WH who have dedicated tools (stealth) to do this.

[Ysaran]

Run Away needs to break on ability use

This please.

Or remove it altogether, or reduce the chance to trigger, or reduce the speed boost.

Its absolutely not balanced or normal (not even desirable unless you love to troll) to be able to kite a full group to death, when no other class in the game could do such thing, saving maybe WE/WH who have dedicated tools (stealth) to do this.

If your whole group has been kited to death by a shaman it's your problem. There are many ways to stop ppl from running, shaman isn't immune to any.

[Caduceus]

You tried to bring "arguments" over multiple pages now, but didn´t explain your premise (rdps > mdps). I don´t think you can, which means everyone can put your whole "argumentation" into the bin. But you can try... It will be a minority opinion. So to take you serious, you have to explain how you came to this conclusion when we see empirically its not the case.

Who are you talking to? I cannot be me, because that was never my premise.

[Caduceus]

You mentioned Am/Sham are OP, and I'm telling you over and over again you clearly don't read what I write, they are not OP!!!!

You can repeat it a thousand times more, but if you don't bring any arguments to the table it will matter little.

And isn't it odd that when you got properly schooled when you tried to bring numbers into the discussion, I'm suddenly using too much numbers?

Please.

Quit your slithering, little snake.