do we have a balance problem?

[Bloodmasked]

All the statistics could tell us is that order are worse than destro, it doesn't imply there is some massive imbalance that makes destro objectively stronger.

Don't you find it odd that Destro's "skill" and "organization" declined significantly after morale bombs were nerfed?
[/quote]

I'm fairly new but I play with organised groups and we win/lose 24 man premades probably 50/50 of the time. Wasnt around when damage morale was stronger.

[dirnsterer]

Highly doubt this one exception is the rule that consistently generates a high 50s/70s win rate for Destro

There is somesort of underlying problem with order other than balance issues. Had city today on order side, both sides pugs, destro, order. Low on tanks, otherwise seemed good. Destro has a good few unguarded targets too. We plunder the first engagement, and guess what happens. Order just gives up, people start going all over the place, afking. One wipe, with rather decent looking setup too. Like completely spineless. I would understand after maybe five tries people would give up when it is pug vs pug and the setups look kinda similiar. But after first? Like come on.

[Sundowner]

Highly doubt this one exception is the rule that consistently generates a high 50s/70s win rate for Destro

There is somesort of underlying problem with order other than balance issues. Had city today on order side, both sides pugs, destro, order. Low on tanks, otherwise seemed good. Destro has a good few unguarded targets too. We plunder the first engagement, and guess what happens. Order just gives up, people start going all over the place, afking. One wipe, with rather decent looking setup too. Like completely spineless. I would understand after maybe five tries people would give up when it is pug vs pug and the setups look kinda similiar. But after first? Like come on.

your anecdotal evidence of 1 instance out of hundreds from the time cities were introduced completely explains order's mindset and its low winrate in cities

[dirnsterer]

Highly doubt this one exception is the rule that consistently generates a high 50s/70s win rate for Destro

There is somesort of underlying problem with order other than balance issues. Had city today on order side, both sides pugs, destro, order. Low on tanks, otherwise seemed good. Destro has a good few unguarded targets too. We plunder the first engagement, and guess what happens. Order just gives up, people start going all over the place, afking. One wipe, with rather decent looking setup too. Like completely spineless. I would understand after maybe five tries people would give up when it is pug vs pug and the setups look kinda similiar. But after first? Like come on.

your anecdotal evidence of 1 instance out of hundreds from the time cities were introduced completely explains order's mindset and its low winrate in cities

I do have a few pieces of sov and on a good way to a few more. So a few more and this seems to be quite the common theme when it comes to order side. Maybe if order would learn to play and group up properly then we could start talking about balance. But no, lets just roll with it, destro shows up, they just press random buttons and end up with a win. Whatever.

[Sundowner]

There is somesort of underlying problem with order other than balance issues. Had city today on order side, both sides pugs, destro, order. Low on tanks, otherwise seemed good. Destro has a good few unguarded targets too. We plunder the first engagement, and guess what happens. Order just gives up, people start going all over the place, afking. One wipe, with rather decent looking setup too. Like completely spineless. I would understand after maybe five tries people would give up when it is pug vs pug and the setups look kinda similiar. But after first? Like come on.

your anecdotal evidence of 1 instance out of hundreds from the time cities were introduced completely explains order's mindset and its low winrate in cities

I do have a few pieces of sov and on a good way to a few more. So a few more and this seems to be quite the common theme when it comes to order side. Maybe if order would learn to play and group up properly then we could start talking about balance. But no, lets just roll with it, destro shows up, they just press random buttons and end up with a win. Whatever.

Again, please understand that your anecdotal evidence means next to nothing when analyzing whole data. I have completely different experience with city sieges (I have full sov and bis, FYI if it means something), played both with guild and pugs. Won with pugs, lost with pugs, sometimes I had to lead them and most of the times it was good. Almost never I had encountered order cowardly giving up after first fight. and had several instances where destro have given up when we wrecked them in first fight See? What you said happened, but opposite happened too, you can extrapolate your personal experience to hundreds of other instances.

Yes, there is problem on order side when it comes to balance, but if you think every time order looses it is because of l2p issues and lack of organization and improving, you are wrong, very, very wrong.

[dirnsterer]

your anecdotal evidence of 1 instance out of hundreds from the time cities were introduced completely explains order's mindset and its low winrate in cities

I do have a few pieces of sov and on a good way to a few more. So a few more and this seems to be quite the common theme when it comes to order side. Maybe if order would learn to play and group up properly then we could start talking about balance. But no, lets just roll with it, destro shows up, they just press random buttons and end up with a win. Whatever.

Again, please understand that your anecdotal evidence means next to nothing when analyzing whole data. I have completely different experience with city sieges (I have full sov and bis, FYI if it means something), played both with guild and pugs. Won with pugs, lost with pugs, sometimes I had to lead them and most of the times it was good. Almost never I had encountered order cowardly giving up after first fight. See? What you said happened, but opposite happened too, you can extrapolate your personal experience to hundreds of other instances.

Yes, there is problem on order side when it comes to balance, but if you think every time order looses it is because of l2p issues and lack of organization and improving, you are wrong, very, very wrong.

If we talk about evidence, please. Start to record every city you do, and start doing proper analysis of why you lost. On every and each city. Plus gather also other city results by asking them, and then also analyze them with the others. Start pinpointing these balance problems to us then. Give us all these balance problems that caused you to lose those times when you lost. As you do seem to know so well.

[Sundowner]

I do have a few pieces of sov and on a good way to a few more. So a few more and this seems to be quite the common theme when it comes to order side. Maybe if order would learn to play and group up properly then we could start talking about balance. But no, lets just roll with it, destro shows up, they just press random buttons and end up with a win. Whatever.

Again, please understand that your anecdotal evidence means next to nothing when analyzing whole data. I have completely different experience with city sieges (I have full sov and bis, FYI if it means something), played both with guild and pugs. Won with pugs, lost with pugs, sometimes I had to lead them and most of the times it was good. Almost never I had encountered order cowardly giving up after first fight. See? What you said happened, but opposite happened too, you can extrapolate your personal experience to hundreds of other instances.

Yes, there is problem on order side when it comes to balance, but if you think every time order looses it is because of l2p issues and lack of organization and improving, you are wrong, very, very wrong.

If we talk about evidence, please. Start to record every city you do, and start doing proper analysis of why you lost. On every and each city. Plus gather also other city results by asking them, and then also analyze them with the others. Start pinpointing these balance problems to us then. Give us all these balance problems that caused you to lose those times when you lost. As you do seem to know so well.

Dude, please stop being ridiculous. I did not say that I know everything, I just pointed that your view of causes of city winrates is a) lacks body of evidence and b) is oversimplification of nuanced subject and is plainly wrong, since my personal anecdote is total opposite of yours. Either present better arguments or abstain from discussion.

[dirnsterer]

Again, please understand that your anecdotal evidence means next to nothing when analyzing whole data. I have completely different experience with city sieges (I have full sov and bis, FYI if it means something), played both with guild and pugs. Won with pugs, lost with pugs, sometimes I had to lead them and most of the times it was good. Almost never I had encountered order cowardly giving up after first fight. See? What you said happened, but opposite happened too, you can extrapolate your personal experience to hundreds of other instances.

Yes, there is problem on order side when it comes to balance, but if you think every time order looses it is because of l2p issues and lack of organization and improving, you are wrong, very, very wrong.

If we talk about evidence, please. Start to record every city you do, and start doing proper analysis of why you lost. On every and each city. Plus gather also other city results by asking them, and then also analyze them with the others. Start pinpointing these balance problems to us then. Give us all these balance problems that caused you to lose those times when you lost. As you do seem to know so well.

Dude, please stop being ridiculous. I did not say that I know everything, I just pointed that your view of causes of city winrates is a) lacks body of evidence and b) is oversimplification of nuanced subject and is plainly wrong, since my personal anecdote is total opposite of yours. Either present better arguments or abstain from discussion.

So, there is no evidence of order lack of organization causing losses. And then there is no evidence of balance problems causing any losses either. Done. No organization problems, and no balance problems. It is a deal.

[Sundowner]

If we talk about evidence, please. Start to record every city you do, and start doing proper analysis of why you lost. On every and each city. Plus gather also other city results by asking them, and then also analyze them with the others. Start pinpointing these balance problems to us then. Give us all these balance problems that caused you to lose those times when you lost. As you do seem to know so well.

Dude, please stop being ridiculous. I did not say that I know everything, I just pointed that your view of causes of city winrates is a) lacks body of evidence and b) is oversimplification of nuanced subject and is plainly wrong, since my personal anecdote is total opposite of yours. Either present better arguments or abstain from discussion.

So, there is no evidence of order lack of organization causing losses. And then there is no evidence of balance problems causing any losses either. Done. No organization problems, and no balance problems. It is a deal.

You are clearly an interesting specimen

[Nekkma]

your anecdotal evidence of 1 instance out of hundreds from the time cities were introduced completely explains order's mindset and its low winrate in cities

I do have a few pieces of sov and on a good way to a few more. So a few more and this seems to be quite the common theme when it comes to order side. Maybe if order would learn to play and group up properly then we could start talking about balance. But no, lets just roll with it, destro shows up, they just press random buttons and end up with a win. Whatever.

Again, please understand that your anecdotal evidence means next to nothing when analyzing whole data. I have completely different experience with city sieges (I have full sov and bis, FYI if it means something), played both with guild and pugs. Won with pugs, lost with pugs, sometimes I had to lead them and most of the times it was good. Almost never I had encountered order cowardly giving up after first fight. See? What you said happened, but opposite happened too, you can extrapolate your personal experience to hundreds of other instances.

Yes, there is problem on order side when it comes to balance, but if you think every time order looses it is because of l2p issues and lack of organization and improving, you are wrong, very, very wrong.

Imo, there is a difference between playing order and destro in the mindset of players (not individuals mind you, as groups). Personally, I think it comes from the fact one side is guaranteed (fast) pops while the other side is not.

Like soloquing scenarios on order is a pain in the ass (it feels like alot of times order rdps train start to kite back to wc before they even have engaged the enemy) but you get instapops so even if you lose all your scenarios with 500-0 you still get 5-6 emblems (plus the ones for topping dmg, protection etc) per hour. Meanwhile on destro, you often only get 1 scenario per hour and then it is crazy important to actually win the scenarios you get to play.

At least that's how I feel. When I get a terrible fight on order I just don't care, I just hope the next one, in a few minutes, will be better, while losing on destro is very frustrating. I don't soloque on destro anymore for just that reason.