The elephant in the room

[Vri]

Hey guys i pumped m4 in Tala rvr lake and we still lost, what gives ?

[Ramlaen]

I hate getting involved in forum posts like this. However I do agree with OP, the morale gain on destro tanks are superior. Far superior.

I am not saying remove the tactics/abilities or w/e.

But perhaps an order variant is needed.

Adding more passive morale pumps will just make the issue worse. This is the same problem that giving order a second CD reducer would cause, the abilities have too much of an effect on the outcome of organized warband fights.

[Sundowner]

I hate getting involved in forum posts like this. However I do agree with OP, the morale gain on destro tanks are superior. Far superior.

I am not saying remove the tactics/abilities or w/e.

But perhaps an order variant is needed.

Adding more passive morale pumps will just make the issue worse. This is the same problem that giving order a second CD reducer would cause, the abilities have too much of an effect on the outcome of organized warband fights.

Yeah giving order abilities they literally lack and do not compensate with others will totally screw game balance

[Ramlaen]

I hate getting involved in forum posts like this. However I do agree with OP, the morale gain on destro tanks are superior. Far superior.

I am not saying remove the tactics/abilities or w/e.

But perhaps an order variant is needed.

Adding more passive morale pumps will just make the issue worse. This is the same problem that giving order a second CD reducer would cause, the abilities have too much of an effect on the outcome of organized warband fights.

Yeah giving order abilities they literally lack and do not compensate with others will totally screw game balance

No, not giving them to Order. Removing them from the game.

[Rowanmantle]

Well removing them wont solve the issue either. It will create huge drama and unesccary backlash because it will inevitably be a nerf to said destro tanks.

What would be a solution for it then? Sure order has quite a few tools for ample morale drain but it does not compensate for the rate at which said tanks actually build morale. Even if executed well. Throw in the double pump from shaman and well...

[detrap]

Well removing them wont solve the issue either. It will create huge drama and unesccary backlash because it will inevitably be a nerf to said destro tanks.

What would be a solution for it then? Sure order has quite a few tools for ample morale drain but it does not compensate for the rate at which said tanks actually build morale. Even if executed well. Throw in the double pump from shaman and well...

I agree.

Well there was supposed to be better balance changes with the nerf to morale damage, and outside of morale pumps this affected both sides evenly, now it's obvious it wasn't the only issue with morale that needed changing.

You could argue Destro tanks take a hit to survivability without the morale pump abuse, but they still have two tanks with the only 50% block channel in the game and still easily sit inside blobs better than order tanks can, without having to drop M4 every minute. You see this with order tanks being the ones having to dance on the edge of guard range constantly.

One difficulty I would see from Destro's side is their tanks really having to focus more on position like order tanks already have to do in cities. I would support buffering the movement speed to 80% on BO's Can't Hit Me to help with their survivability or remove the speed penalty completely with a tactic.

It's becoming more obvious now why Destro warbands like to blob to build morale when they can't push through funnels in cities because they know they'll have all their black orcs and chosens with M3 before any of the order tanks have m2 which is a useless counter for us against their morale drop. They already have the all the cc in the game to break up order lines and interrupt our channels but they prefer an 'easy for pugs' playstyle with this kind of morale pump and dump.

[emiliorv]

The point of the post is it's a lot easier doing damage mitigation for the warband by stacking black orcs than it is stacking any other order tank due to M4 being used every minute.

You should be rotating DBs in City Siege, as you can achieve 100% uptime of -50% dmg, thats one thing.
You usualy stack Blacks Orcs rather for M3 "mirror" of Knights "No Escape" for more pressure rather than extra damage reduction.

Yes we rotate DB's, however -75% damage mitigation from M4's every minute is obviously superior.

Probably depends on the sutuation => for your grp obviously 75% dmg reduction is better, but for whole wb vs wb fight probably is better -50% dmg debuff on the dps blob...

[emiliorv]

Destro tanks have to deal with UNDEFENDABLE dmg (self and guarded dmg) so they only have morales to mitigate...since Order tanks dont have to deal with any class who nullify his archetype probably dont need a easy access to morale mitigation...(also got some extra healing output) looks balanced...

Since removing abilities from the game could be looked as a nerf...bring order selfpump to tanks (balance with destro mirrors?) and destro access to undefendable aoe melee dmg (i assume to balance destro mirror too). In the process remove the +15% healing from kotbs or mirror it to chosen.

woot!! what a balance job we have done here...

[emiliorv]

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a destruction city warband with 4 black orcs can give the entire warband 75% damage reduction for 10 seconds every 40 seconds and an equivalent Order warband cannot?

Lets play => gonna change a few words on your argument.

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a order city warband with 4 slayers can nullify all destro tanks 10 seconds every 30 seconds and an equivalent Destro warband cannot?

[M0rw47h]

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a destruction city warband with 4 black orcs can give the entire warband 75% damage reduction for 10 seconds every 40 seconds and an equivalent Order warband cannot?

Lets play => gonna change a few words on your argument.

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a order city warband with 4 slayers can nullify all destro tanks 10 seconds every 30 seconds and an equivalent Destro warband cannot?

It's 20 seconds every 30 seconds, but it can be shattered