The elephant in the room

[detrap]

Destro tanks have to deal with UNDEFENDABLE dmg (self and guarded dmg) so they only have morales to mitigate...since Order tanks dont have to deal with any class who nullify his archetype probably dont need a easy access to morale mitigation...(also got some extra healing output) looks balanced...

Since removing abilities from the game could be looked as a nerf...bring order selfpump to tanks (balance with destro mirrors?) and destro access to undefendable aoe melee dmg (i assume to balance destro mirror too). In the process remove the +15% healing from kotbs or mirror it to chosen.

woot!! what a balance job we have done here...

If you are referring to the go to argument on rampage...

it can be shattered by multiple classes. Destro tanks and mdps usually have no cooldowns on their shatter enchantment abilities.
it removes the damage bonus from slayers unless they have the tactic not to drop rage
if they cant drop rage then they are squishy the entire fight.

A tank can easily sit behind a slayer doing a channeled attack and still be in guard range, avoiding the undefendable attacks.

Why remove the healing aura from the knight? Mirroring abilities is not the best idea.

Giving both sides morale pump on tanks is not good, because a lot more cities will be just m4 spam with no warbands wiping and all about PvE

[M0rw47h]

A tank can easily sit behind a slayer doing a channeled attack and still be in guard range, avoiding the undefendable attacks.

His point was, you can't block/parry guard dmg coming with rampage.

[emiliorv]

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a destruction city warband with 4 black orcs can give the entire warband 75% damage reduction for 10 seconds every 40 seconds and an equivalent Order warband cannot?

Lets play => gonna change a few words on your argument.

Okay fine.

Is it right, fair and balanced that a order city warband with 4 slayers can nullify all destro tanks 10 seconds every 30 seconds and an equivalent Destro warband cannot?

It's 20 seconds every 30 seconds, but it can be shattered

Lets say that you dont have a good rage management and also dont have access to a SM cd reduction...so in worst case is 10/30...

it can be shattered, yes....and morale can be drained, yes...looks like averything have its counter...but still the OP feel the need to open a thread to point so "huge imbalance"..

[detrap]

A tank can easily sit behind a slayer doing a channeled attack and still be in guard range, avoiding the undefendable attacks.

His point was, you can't block/parry guard dmg coming with rampage.

I understand but a 5 second interruptable 25ft channel from retribution from a slayer during a shatterable 20 second ability is not going to cause you to die to guard damage, its you sitting in the blob that is. Tell the tanks to do their job, BO's and BG's have no cd on the shatters with Waaaagh and Chop Fasta.

[M0rw47h]

A tank can easily sit behind a slayer doing a channeled attack and still be in guard range, avoiding the undefendable attacks.

His point was, you can't block/parry guard dmg coming with rampage.

I understand but a 5 second interruptable 25ft channel from retribution from a slayer during a shatterable 20 second ability is not going to cause you to die to guard damage, its you sitting in the blob that is.

Not sure if you're serious, but a) nobody is dying to a single Slayer, b) Retri is just cherry on top of multiple IDs, covered with Onslaughts, c) you do AoE drops on any smaller or bigger group of dps / healers you intend to kill, tank is supposed to guard his dps/healers and not "avoid" enemies, it has nothing with "blobs", d) ID has same range as guard, thus you always take ID + ID guard damage if its on person you're guarding and Slayer has Rampage on.

[emiliorv]

A tank can easily sit behind a slayer doing a channeled attack and still be in guard range, avoiding the undefendable attacks.

His point was, you can't block/parry guard dmg coming with rampage.

I understand but a 5 second interruptable 25ft channel from retribution from a slayer during a shatterable 20 second ability is not going to cause you to die to guard damage, its you sitting in the blob that is.

yes yes, we all know that rampage is pure trash (such a gimp ability that noone use because gimp your dps) but SOMEHOW order players defend it to death to remain untouched and also dont want a mirrored version...also mostly destro players feel that is a source of unbalance

The question is that by the same way rampage can be countered the destro morale can be countered too (really the most used morale on tanks are DB rotations, at least in the wbs i used to join...)

[detrap]

His point was, you can't block/parry guard dmg coming with rampage.

I understand but a 5 second interruptable 25ft channel from retribution from a slayer during a shatterable 20 second ability is not going to cause you to die to guard damage, its you sitting in the blob that is.

Not sure if you're serious, but a) nobody is dying to a single Slayer, b) Retri is just cherry on top of multiple IDs, covered with Onslaughts, c) you do AoE drops on any smaller or bigger group of dps / healers you intend to kill, tank is supposed to guard his dps/healers and not "avoid" enemies, it has nothing with "blobs", d) ID has same range as guard, thus you always take ID + ID guard damage if its on person you're guarding and Slayer has Rampage on.

If you easily shatter the rampage then the guard damage is defendable or hope your healers cleanse the ailments since they don't have cooldowns on cleanses either with BO/Choppa stack warbands. if you are a tank taking a lot of guard damage as well as aoe damage because you are in the blob, that has little to do with unbalanced mechanics, just bad positioning.

[detrap]

His point was, you can't block/parry guard dmg coming with rampage.

I understand but a 5 second interruptable 25ft channel from retribution from a slayer during a shatterable 20 second ability is not going to cause you to die to guard damage, its you sitting in the blob that is.

yes yes, we all know that rampage is pure trash (such a gimp ability that noone use because gimp your dps) but SOMEHOW order players defend it to death to remain untouched and also dont want a mirrored version...also mostly destro players feel that is a source of unbalance

The question is that by the same way rampage can be countered the destro morale can be countered too (really the most used morale on tanks are DB rotations, at least in the wbs i used to join...)

With BO/Choppa stacked warbands, rampage is easily removed, just stand behind the slayer and spam your shatter enchantment, retribution is only 25ft aoe so you can still be in guard range without being affected by it directly, and ID is cleanable by healers since they may have no CD on their cleanse ability either.

Yeah it looks tricky to compensate one or the other if morale pump is removed, but racing to M3 morale drop or if that fails turtling up with M4's in cities to pve the Lord is not good endgame content. You can be up on kills 300 to 10 and still lose.

[emiliorv]

I understand but a 5 second interruptable 25ft channel from retribution from a slayer during a shatterable 20 second ability is not going to cause you to die to guard damage, its you sitting in the blob that is.

yes yes, we all know that rampage is pure trash (such a gimp ability that noone use because gimp your dps) but SOMEHOW order players defend it to death to remain untouched and also dont want a mirrored version...also mostly destro players feel that is a source of unbalance

The question is that by the same way rampage can be countered the destro morale can be countered too (really the most used morale on tanks are DB rotations, at least in the wbs i used to join...)

With BO/Choppa stacked warbands, rampage is easily removed, just stand behind the slayer and spam your shatter enchantment, retribution is only 25ft aoe so you can still be in guard range without being affected by it directly, and ID is cleanable by healers since they may have no CD on their cleanse ability either.

Destro morale is easily removed, just use AM to pump kotbs and use solar flare.
(You can add a BW specced for morale drain M4 and selfpump)

[detrap]

yes yes, we all know that rampage is pure trash (such a gimp ability that noone use because gimp your dps) but SOMEHOW order players defend it to death to remain untouched and also dont want a mirrored version...also mostly destro players feel that is a source of unbalance

The question is that by the same way rampage can be countered the destro morale can be countered too (really the most used morale on tanks are DB rotations, at least in the wbs i used to join...)

With BO/Choppa stacked warbands, rampage is easily removed, just stand behind the slayer and spam your shatter enchantment, retribution is only 25ft aoe so you can still be in guard range without being affected by it directly, and ID is cleanable by healers since they may have no CD on their cleanse ability either.

Destro morale is easily removed, just use AM to pump kotbs and use solar flare.
(You can add a BW specced for morale drain M4 and selfpump)

Am would have to focus heal the knight only most of the time, solar flare is only 30ft, which means you lose a healer that could be helping keep the bw up because bw are generally lucky to even have m2 before they die against good Destro pre-mades. Black orcs and chosens would still have M4 before the knight would if you also had a shammy using their morale pump.