Analyzing Order

[Snowhawk]

Play a DD Destro and you see: Destro loose also many many many SCs You are a good healer.. thats it.

My Scenarioexperience with randoms destroside: 1 Win 4 loses vs order.

[wachlarz]

u dont need to be a genius to understand that order is the handicapped faction.
But the majority of peoples prefer to ignore this problem and reroll destro, like evryone did on live server untill he died .

Just roll destro and call it a day, you'll have a much easier time all around. You get to claim l2p when order does bad, and you get to claim order OP when destro does bad. Destro lobbyists have this forum on lock, they are the big oil of the forums. You can't beat em, just join em.


Also whoever said WL pull is better than Mara pull, I'll have what you're smoking lol. Imagine thinking sacraficing your pet -which always dies -and buffs for a pull. Where as Mara literally get a no-risk pull. If you pull you get a cheap kill, if you dont you lose nothing lmao.

Agreed, that comment made me chuckle.

WL generally(not only the pull) requires more positional awareness & micromanagement skills than Marauder when playing with the Pet, yet performs worse.

This added pet control dimension is what made me pick the class(currently RR 79), but WL will remain a worse Marauder until WL pet receives a much needed survivability buff(too many important stuff tied to it, pet dps, pack synergy etc, loner- tactic can't compensate at all). It is absurd actually that a melee pet ( yes this needs to be emphasized, its exposed at close range and not a ranged pet) has so little survivability and a 15sec cd when it dies(it happens frequently leaving the WL semi-useless)! The War Lion needs to be much tougher than it currently is.

It's when you add up all the small stuff like these that faction imbalances occur imho, it has been proven beyond any doubt that players generally take the path of less resistance(any game) so this is a logical explanation as to why there is a pretty large faction imbalance in favor of Destruction realm.

Hopefully devs will look into these stuff one day and make changes accordingly. Order is certainly playable but obviously the ''Hardcore'' mode in this game.

I think U are animal lover. If maruder try pull and shitt happens he die and end of story. But wl just wait and respawn a pet. So life of real player > pet xd

[Meliannia]

it's not a balance issue in this case (see my main post) it's the gms/dev obsession with making weekend event scen destro bias all zerg centre meleeball and stay putt no brain smashfest healfest King of the Hill.
Destro win 90% of them 75% 500-0, 37-0 kills, they get 100,000 to 150,000 renown per hour for king of the hill event scen, complete the entire event in 1 to 3hrs thats why they keep rolling them for3 days non stop. Order get 350points per hour and take 3 days or never to do the entire event

the other scen types are 1. Multiple bases eg Dragon bane, gate of ekrund, logain forge which destro struggle at as it requires thought, brains, movement, splitting up , smaller fights, even solo fights, and using map, brainless middle blob zerg doesnt win, coz you lose 2 bases to 1. win rate is about 40 to 60% for each faction which is a balanced and fair scenario type and losing team still gets 3000 to 4000 renown as they nearly always score 270 to 490. and as its more competitive and close run. destro dont stick around spamming this event scen for 3 days coz they cant faceroll 500-0 wins with little to no effort and god forbid they may lose a few and have some close fun games.

same for 2. Flag running scens eg phoenix gate, serp passge, stoentroll, talabac dam, destro tend to get more kills here than the multiple base scens as they camp order gy, but order win quite a few as one or two smart ppl, run the flag or keg behind destro back and win the game while destro are farming 50 kills at the gy then start howling at the moon when they realise they lost 500-150 and then the pain on their scrunched up contorted faces irl as they realise kills doesnt win this scen. What an epiphany.

the solution is to either remove king of the hills from the weekend event scen list or simply make it a more fair and balanced weekend event scen rotation (see below)
week 1 multiple base eg nordenwatch
week 2 king of the hill eg mounkain temple
week 3 flag run eg phoenix gate
week 4 multiple bases eg gates of ekrund
week 5 king of the hill eg college of corruption
week 5 flag run eg stonetroll crossing


very simple to do, and it would create competitive hard fought scens where 1 or 2 good players can really make a difference instead of every1 being farmed at base and scoring zero points zero renown for 12misn while destro spam out 12000 a scen. Multiple base and flag run scens also keeps every1 fighting til the last minute for the win and points keep rolling in so progress is made and no1 quits,

Swords In The Wind.

The Mel.

[Rapzel]

1300 armor debuff with resistance debuff, 15 sec duration.

1400 armor debuff with 2400 damage component, 30 sec duration.

You seem to forget that Zealot also may have to save their moral for things such as Siphon/DP/Windblock while engi's sole purpose is utility and damage.
Zealots are there to heal, I can't remember the last time I saw a WB running a DPS Zealot.

Are we going to compare Isha's Ward and Impenetrable armor next?

Because a 2400 damage component is going to make such a big difference vs a Champ with 110k+ hp, right? And when's the last time you saw 3+ Engineers in an "optimized" warband? There's a reason why almost every Zealot has that M1 slotted.

Just make Cannon Smash an M1 mirror of Tzeentch's Talon and call it day.

Why would you need 3+ engineers, you have a 100% uptime on the 1400 armor debuff with 2 engineers, while you need 4 zealots to rotate it to have 100% uptime.
Yes being able to remove 1400 armor is a huge thing, specially when you have WL armor debuff in the AoE path, while it's in Path of Sav for Mara and requires the Mara swap from Monstro to Sav to apply it.
Only you Teiloh must believe that straight up being able to remove 2800 armor isn't "good enough", but ask your Engi friends if they want to get their Cannon Smash nerfed to oblivion.

[teiloh]

Why would you need 3+ engineers, you have a 100% uptime on the 1400 armor debuff with 2 engineers, while you need 4 zealots to rotate it to have 100% uptime.
Yes being able to remove 1400 armor is a huge thing, specially when you have WL armor debuff in the AoE path, while it's in Path of Sav for Mara and requires the Mara swap from Monstro to Sav to apply it.
Only you Teiloh must believe that straight up being able to remove 2800 armor isn't "good enough", but ask your Engi friends if they want to get their Cannon Smash nerfed to oblivion.

I'd be interested in seeing those vids of champs taking full assist train damage for 100% of 60 seconds from two Engineers.

Lets not pretend almost every city doesn't have a Sav Mara these days.

[Sundowner]

1300 armor debuff with resistance debuff, 15 sec duration.

1400 armor debuff with 2400 damage component, 30 sec duration.

You seem to forget that Zealot also may have to save their moral for things such as Siphon/DP/Windblock while engi's sole purpose is utility and damage.
Zealots are there to heal, I can't remember the last time I saw a WB running a DPS Zealot.

Are we going to compare Isha's Ward and Impenetrable armor next?

Because a 2400 damage component is going to make such a big difference vs a Champ with 110k+ hp, right? And when's the last time you saw 3+ Engineers in an "optimized" warband? There's a reason why almost every Zealot has that M1 slotted.

Just make Cannon Smash an M1 mirror of Tzeentch's Talon and call it day.

Why would you need 3+ engineers, you have a 100% uptime on the 1400 armor debuff with 2 engineers, while you need 4 zealots to rotate it to have 100% uptime.
Yes being able to remove 1400 armor is a huge thing, specially when you have WL armor debuff in the AoE path, while it's in Path of Sav for Mara and requires the Mara swap from Monstro to Sav to apply it.
Only you Teiloh must believe that straight up being able to remove 2800 armor isn't "good enough", but ask your Engi friends if they want to get their Cannon Smash nerfed to oblivion.

Bruh, why would you compare ST m3 and aoe tactic at all? besides RP has the same tactic but with only armor debuff.

[Rapzel]

Because a 2400 damage component is going to make such a big difference vs a Champ with 110k+ hp, right? And when's the last time you saw 3+ Engineers in an "optimized" warband? There's a reason why almost every Zealot has that M1 slotted.

Just make Cannon Smash an M1 mirror of Tzeentch's Talon and call it day.

Why would you need 3+ engineers, you have a 100% uptime on the 1400 armor debuff with 2 engineers, while you need 4 zealots to rotate it to have 100% uptime.
Yes being able to remove 1400 armor is a huge thing, specially when you have WL armor debuff in the AoE path, while it's in Path of Sav for Mara and requires the Mara swap from Monstro to Sav to apply it.
Only you Teiloh must believe that straight up being able to remove 2800 armor isn't "good enough", but ask your Engi friends if they want to get their Cannon Smash nerfed to oblivion.

Bruh, why would you compare ST m3 and aoe tactic at all? besides RP has the same tactic but with only armor debuff.

Because someone who's name starts with T whined about how "Engi is bad, while magus is god tier" and I brought up that Engi has several advantages over Magus, one being Cannon Smash, which is a super strong m3, and then T as per usual gets triggered and has to bring up something completely arbitrary (this time it was Tzeentch's Talon) to derail a normal discussion.
AoE tactic? We're talking about Cannon Smash + Force Opportunity and Tzeentch's Talon + Cutting Claw.

[teiloh]

Because someone who's name starts with T whined about how "Engi is bad, while magus is god tier" and I brought up that Engi has several advantages over Magus, one being Cannon Smash, which is a super strong m3, and then T as per usual gets triggered and has to bring up something completely arbitrary (this time it was Tzeentch's Talon) to derail a normal discussion.
AoE tactic? We're talking about Cannon Smash + Force Opportunity and Tzeentch's Talon + Cutting Claw.

Your rebuttal to AOE Magus > AOE Engi is ...

Cannon Smash.

Ok. Armor/resist debuffs are distributed across realms in a limited fashion, for Order it's on Engi M3, for Destro its on Zealots M1 in a better form.

[Rapzel]

Because someone who's name starts with T whined about how "Engi is bad, while magus is god tier" and I brought up that Engi has several advantages over Magus, one being Cannon Smash, which is a super strong m3, and then T as per usual gets triggered and has to bring up something completely arbitrary (this time it was Tzeentch's Talon) to derail a normal discussion.
AoE tactic? We're talking about Cannon Smash + Force Opportunity and Tzeentch's Talon + Cutting Claw.

Your rebuttal to AOE Magus > AOE Engi is ...

Cannon Smash.

Ok. Armor/resist debuffs are distributed across realms in a limited fashion, for Order it's on Engi M3, for Destro its on Zealots M1 in a better form.

I have never said that Engi AoE DMG is better or on par with Magus AoE DMG, I pointed out the fact that they have access to several other utility tools that makes them really good as well in WBs.
Well played I don't think the two careers are miles apart as the majority of Order Priders do believe they are, both AoE specs are focused around magic damage.
Sure there are attacks that the engi has that gets hard countered by armor, but at the same time Magus lacks auto-attacks and have to deal with careers with high Disrupt chance, while there's very few careers with a innate high dodge chance.
Magus as well (unless it was hotfixed) has to be careful where to put down AoE as WP has Exalted Defenses and can accidentally give WP free +20% healing, while engi is more fire and forget.
Both careers have their strengths and weaknesses. Except you don't see any destro weaknesses

[teiloh]

I have never said that Engi AoE DMG is better or on par with Magus AoE DMG, I pointed out the fact that they have access to several other utility tools that makes them really good as well in WBs.
Well played I don't think the two careers are miles apart as the majority of Order Priders do believe they are, both AoE specs are focused around magic damage.
Sure there are attacks that the engi has that gets hard countered by armor, but at the same time Magus lacks auto-attacks and have to deal with careers with high Disrupt chance, while there's very few careers with a innate high dodge chance.
Magus as well (unless it was hotfixed) has to be careful where to put down AoE as WP has Exalted Defenses and can accidentally give WP free +20% healing, while engi is more fire and forget.
Both careers have their strengths and weaknesses. Except you don't see any destro weaknesses

The Engi's main spammable AOE hits armor and because of this they will typically hit for much less. Engi autoattacks are also an insignificant part of AOE DPS.

Very few healers go past 750 will and almost everyone has 300+ Initiative, vs. high Will targets that's a 16-17% difference in defense, vs everything else a Magus will generally have an easier time hitting things.