[Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

[space44]

Your doing less damage but able to hit more people. Might take a while to understand that, most people have been driven into madness seeking understanding.

[detrap]

First, this is not necessarily true. I've heard people claim the opposite.
Second, when it comes to "everyone" people often just repeat what they heard, without making their own research.

Let's look at Chosen, he also provides auras, but also deals more dmg. What does Kotbs do better than Chosen to justify overall lower dmg output?

You don't need much research to see the knights left tree is similar to the Blackguard's in terms of debuffs, not the Chosen's. Even with Vigilance a knight is able to dive into the middle of a destro blob and maximise its 30ft radius of aura debuffs and easily survive.

Would you rather prefer weaker utility for the sake of a little more damage output so that you are like other tanks?

[lyncher12]

kotbs job isn't to do damage

[arorwne]

Knight and Chosen already deal next to no damage(...don't ask why), so what's the difference? With that said, Slice Through is a nice Tactic. A very potent small scale skill if I ever saw one.

[mytreds]

You don't need much research to see the knights left tree is similar to the Blackguard's in terms of debuffs, not the Chosen's.

What do Knights and Chosen share on their Left trees?

To Glory!=Dreadful Terror
Myrmidia's Fury=Relentless (Chosen 114 more damage)
All Out Assault=Dreadful Agony
Shining Blade=Tooth of Tzeentch
Crippling Blow(L)=Dizzying Blow(M)
Press the Attack!=Dreadful Fear
Overpowering Swing (enemies hit 10% more likely to be crit)~Opressing Blows(personal 15% increase chance to crit, Relentless now spirit dmg)
Runefang(R, TGH/WS)~Daemonclaw(L, STR/TGH)

What do the Knights and BGs share on their Left trees?

Precision Strike=Murderous Wrath (knight 15 more dmg)~Cleave is chosen equivalent 159 dmg, undefendable
Crippling Blow~Crippling Anger (BG's is 25.5 dmg/s)

Other abilities of note:
Tier 3 abilities-
Knight's Staggering Impact-all enemies in 30ft radius, 22dmg/p, chance to def attacks red by 10%, 30sec cd
Chosen's Rending Blade-enemies in front 25ft, 124 spirit dmg, undefendable, 5 sec cd
BG's Crimson Death- enemies 40ft in front, 294 dmg, 10% more likely to be crit, 10 sec cd

Tier 4 Morales-
Knight's Nova Strike- 800 dmg in a line 65ft range, plus 89.3 dmg/sec
Chosen's Warping Embrace- 80 dmg/s 40ft in front, 15 sec snare
BG's Blast of Hatred- 106 dmg/s 40ft in front, 15 sec snare

[nonfactor]

Let's look at Chosen, he also provides auras, but also deals more dmg. What does Kotbs do better than Chosen to justify overall lower dmg output?

15% more healing
10% more crit chance with 2h
triple slow

all of that for an average less 50k damage id say its a pretty good trade

[detrap]

Spoiler:

You don't need much research to see the knights left tree is similar to the Blackguard's in terms of debuffs, not the Chosen's.

What do Knights and Chosen share on their Left trees?

To Glory!=Dreadful Terror
Myrmidia's Fury=Relentless (Chosen 114 more damage)
All Out Assault=Dreadful Agony
Shining Blade=Tooth of Tzeentch
Crippling Blow(L)=Dizzying Blow(M)
Press the Attack!=Dreadful Fear
Overpowering Swing (enemies hit 10% more likely to be crit)~Opressing Blows(personal 15% increase chance to crit, Relentless now spirit dmg)
Runefang(R, TGH/WS)~Daemonclaw(L, STR/TGH)

What do the Knights and BGs share on their Left trees?

Precision Strike=Murderous Wrath (knight 15 more dmg)~Cleave is chosen equivalent 159 dmg, undefendable
Crippling Blow~Crippling Anger (BG's is 25.5 dmg/s)

Other abilities of note:
Tier 3 abilities-
Knight's Staggering Impact-all enemies in 30ft radius, 22dmg/p, chance to def attacks red by 10%, 30sec cd
Chosen's Rending Blade-enemies in front 25ft, 124 spirit dmg, undefendable, 5 sec cd
BG's Crimson Death- enemies 40ft in front, 294 dmg, 10% more likely to be crit, 10 sec cd

Tier 4 Morales-
Knight's Nova Strike- 800 dmg in a line 65ft range, plus 89.3 dmg/sec
Chosen's Warping Embrace- 80 dmg/s 40ft in front, 15 sec snare
BG's Blast of Hatred- 106 dmg/s 40ft in front, 15 sec snare

Generally, your primary role as a 2h Knight/Blackguard in warbands is to apply mass wounds, crit and defensive debuffs.

Staggering Impact ≠ Furious Howl (not in the 2h tree but it's obviously a mirrored ability)
Arcing Swing + Overpowering Swing ≠ Crimson Death/Monstrous Rending + Hastened Doom (The reliance on crit to debuff wounds is partly why BG's need a crit tactic and Knights don't)

In ORvR Chosen's will generally use Rendring Blade from their 2h tree. They have a slightly less optimal wounds debuff than the Knight/BG. Outside of all this, the BG does have better ST debuffs, whereas the Knight and Chosen are only then more closely aligned in terms of their mirrored mechanic with more AoE debuffs.

So the BG and Knight 2h trees have better AoE debuffs for boosting their warbands damage, with the Knight ahead due to having the added benefit of auras. This is why its understandable the BG can do more direct damage than the Knight and also why the Chosen can as well because in warband play it can't match the AoE debuffing power of the Knight.

[arorwne]

Yes, that's exactly the elephant in the room. Sure, both Knight and Chosen bring a lot to the group(arguably less than they used to because other tanks got better at this), but answer this:

Can or Will you be grouped all the time? How about 50% of time?

[Foomy44]

Yes, that's exactly the elephant in the room. Sure, both Knight and Chosen bring a lot to the group(arguably less than they used to because other tanks got better at this), but answer this:

Can or Will you be grouped all the time? How about 50% of time?

Last I checked this game is balanced around group play.

[nonfactor]

Yes, that's exactly the elephant in the room. Sure, both Knight and Chosen bring a lot to the group(arguably less than they used to because other tanks got better at this), but answer this:

Can or Will you be grouped all the time? How about 50% of time?

imagine playing a tank not in a group omegalul