Sorc/BW Time for Escape

[CountTalabecland]

Leaderboards are not how balance should be decided.

What are you going to do, just nerf whatever class manages to get the most ppl on there each season?

Pretty stupid argument. Leaderboards provide no evidence or context of who the opponents were or any explanation of why the match was won.

Leaderboards say more about the player than the class.

[Bozzax]

Yep mining large data sets from team matches with good setups and making alterations based on actual performance in a controlled environment makes absolutely no sense.

Individual performance won’t affect analysis if you know what you are doing.

Why do you assume they don’t store comp data for win correlation? (Specs, rrbuilds, as well as gear and gstats ets)

[Aluviya]

You know what makes me really sad/mad about balance discussions? It's people who state their opinion in balance topics such as this one even though they have never played the classes to a certain level which could be considered even "good". I absolutely agree with bombling - not just because he is arguing with facts here but also because he is one of the very few bw's who can actually make the class work. Sorc and BW remain a public risk so far specifically because there are many clueless people who state their opinion from a place of 0 clue. A sorc or BW has to use at least 6 spells with same amount of gcd's inbetween (and 2 of these spells are only castable if stationary) them to deal any reasonable damage - while in every step you can be cleansed or disrupted, taunted while building a spell or beeing chased so can't actually even build any spell or simply have no line of sight.
Without any doubt BW and Sorc are classes that can be denied a kill easier than any other dps class and there are several reasons to it (some examples...) : Both classes are designed so that you can even acustically hear that you are beeing rotated at. You can barely hear any other dot class such as Magus, SW, Squig all. Moreover favored healer combo (WP/RP - Zeal/DOK) are both able to cleanse these classes to an extend that it can completely deny them any rotation (you don't have enough dots to cover your important dots if you face an RP or Zeal cleansing well) you can even completely prevent them a rotation.
In addition addons like Buffhead or any group related addons can filter effects so the ever feared word of pain or boiling blood indicates clearly that someone is beeing attacked by a bw or sorc.
Meanwhile people are whining about these classes to an extend which is hard to understand while at hand the current system is very imbalanced RDPS-wise with classes such as SH who have literally every escape and utility a rangeclas can wish for and the excuse for giving a BW or Sorc can't be the argument that "they deal damage".
While I also agree that leaderbords are not saying much about these classes - expert players like Bombling giving feedback is a clear indicator that things are not going well.
Sorc and BW are clearly needing at least 1 escape aside from M2 which is not as badly designed as Grip of Fear or Fire Cage which both punish your team for a certain extend by giving free immunities.

[Caduceus]

Every class balance thread you find a group of players with a giant chip on their shoulder.

To them, each time a BW/Sorc scores a kill or wins a match, it is a sign they are fine and have no problems.

[Asherdoom]

You know what makes me really sad/mad about balance discussions? It's people who state their opinion in balance topics such as this one even though they have never played the classes to a certain level which could be considered even "good". I absolutely agree with bombling - not just because he is arguing with facts here but also because he is one of the very few bw's who can actually make the class work. Sorc and BW remain a public risk so far specifically because there are many clueless people who state their opinion from a place of 0 clue. A sorc or BW has to use at least 6 spells with same amount of gcd's inbetween (and 2 of these spells are only castable if stationary) them to deal any reasonable damage - while in every step you can be cleansed or disrupted, taunted while building a spell or beeing chased so can't actually even build any spell or simply have no line of sight.
Without any doubt BW and Sorc are classes that can be denied a kill easier than any other dps class and there are several reasons to it (some examples...) : Both classes are designed so that you can even acustically hear that you are beeing rotated at. You can barely hear any other dot class such as Magus, SW, Squig all. Moreover favored healer combo (WP/RP - Zeal/DOK) are both able to cleanse these classes to an extend that it can completely deny them any rotation (you don't have enough dots to cover your important dots if you face an RP or Zeal cleansing well) you can even completely prevent them a rotation.
In addition addons like Buffhead or any group related addons can filter effects so the ever feared word of pain or boiling blood indicates clearly that someone is beeing attacked by a bw or sorc.
Meanwhile people are whining about these classes to an extend which is hard to understand while at hand the current system is very imbalanced RDPS-wise with classes such as SH who have literally every escape and utility a rangeclas can wish for and the excuse for giving a BW or Sorc can't be the argument that "they deal damage".
While I also agree that leaderbords are not saying much about these classes - expert players like Bombling giving feedback is a clear indicator that things are not going well.
Sorc and BW are clearly needing at least 1 escape aside from M2 which is not as badly designed as Grip of Fear or Fire Cage which both punish your team for a certain extend by giving free immunities.

finally someone who states what is right. I do not agree with escape mechanic: i try argument (i never played rated only cities) the issue with casters is that their cc are useeless: roots? for example lion can grace out of it or get aoe dispel. so you give free immunity for nothing.

You can barely hear any other dot class such as Magus, SW, Squig all. Moreover favored healer combo (WP/RP - Zeal/DOK) are both able to cleanse these classes to an extend that it can completely deny them any rotation (you don't have enough dots to cover your important dots if you face an RP or Zeal cleansing well) you can even completely prevent them a rotation.

THIS is what the devs should focus. Aoe specced sorc is still quite good in cities. In single target(especially scenarios) the single target spec is worthless unless healer sleeps.

[Aluviya]

Every class balance thread you find a group of players with a giant chip on their shoulder.

To them, each time a BW/Sorc scores a kill or wins a match, it is a sign they are fine and have no problems.

generic answer yeah go for it

[wonshot]

[Day 2 of season2 ranked]
What these two classes lack in organized 6v6, they have going for them in unorganized freecasting sniping. Lets not forget about this part, because that is probably what is also preventing these careers in getting any changes. Sorc and BW freecasting in a situation against ungaurded or unprotected, can straight up bully players to an extend where they become a pugstomping monster.

As much as I think these classes are "not as good" for 6v6 soloQ as much should they be remembered in their pugstomping potential And I personally think that is the issue. It is too All-or-nothing in the timestamp.

Timestamp is even showing on Enemy when you are affected by a WoP or a BB, on the same level of importance as if a player is healdebuffed or staggered. I cant think of any other class that is telegraphed to such an extend as easily in giving a warning or headsup that a burst is about to happen. Chillwind has a notisable sound if you play with sounds on for the trained ear to get the first warning sign

But if we look at the Season2 ranked leaderboards, because i think some data can be extracted from that mess even early on.
A few sorcs are doing well for themselves, where as the BW leaderboard is pretty much just a mess. My guess based on the current state of the game would be;

- Some of it I feel comes down to the state of Order classes. WL being in a wierd bugged state with pet pathing. While being the order MDPS with the most catching tools so less decent WL performances to lock down the sorcs.
- Order tanks not applying as much dmg output compared to destro counterparts so the combined pressure on a sorc is ever so slightly lower when they do get caught.
- Sorc does fairly well or even has the advantage in Rdps vs Rdps matchups over (BW, DPS AM, Engineer, RSW) Where as the BW is arguebly in a disadvantage in their RDPS matchups but especially against RSH)

While slayers can absolutely reck a sorc, they have the most limmted chasing tools and a sorc can trade 1for1 in Chase vs Escape tools vs slayers, even in some situations a flee + ap pot or focusmind on top will be enough to stop two charging slayers in reaching a sorc, and it can go back to freecasting leaving it up to a Tank peel vs Tank setup situation in teameffort of catching and pinning the sorc down. Anyways.

Sorc having a little easier time after 2 days, would come down to the state of WL not being their natural preditor and i assume the devs will hopefully clean the WL and (all) pet issues up and that should bring some of the sorc winrates a little more in line of how the rdps vs mdps matchupes usually go.

Brightwizard have one extra layer of RNG to bypass with the issue of not selfdebuffing as much of his own damage type, as the sorc. Leading to a situation where you pretty much need a knight in your matchup to reach your full potential in your unloads of timestamps. This alone I would say is the biggest difference between sorc and BW performance in a soloqueue enviroment. Ironicly enough for wanting a knight, the knight is also the lowest dmgoutput tank so the BW has to carry more weight on his shoulders to secure kills.

My prediction will be that when WL is getting fixed, sorcs will fall more in line of BW leaderboard but still be a little ahead simply because of the damagetype advantage.
That being said, I think the biggest take away we can get from the current leaderboard is that when one of these classes (sorc in this case) have enough escape tools and one less layer of RNG to depend on, the class can do well in the hands of good players. So as in my previous post, ill appoint the effectiveness of the aoe root and underline how i personally think this baseline archtype escape tool maybe should be looked at to be a real escape tool, while it also prevents offensive followup plays simply because of the fact that it gives punt immunity and that is the key to setting up backloaded kills in 6v6 as a caster.

[Bozzax]

~10% less burst damage traded (5% with knight) for…

stronger group procs
Higher pressure kiting
Hdebuff
INSTA SNARE
Self clns
M3 full clns (M2 is great tho)
Rkd (1s disarm ok by all means)

But this like having two weak kids argue who is boss

Data from 2-3 days is very weak for analysis

[Aluviya]

~10% less burst damage traded (5% with knight) for…

stronger group procs
Higher pressure kiting
Hdebuff
INSTA SNARE
Self clns
M3 full clns (M2 is great tho)
Rkd (1s disarm ok by all means)

But this like having two weak kids argue who is boss

Data from 2-3 days is very weak for analysis

stronger group procs limiting you from having a good spec yourself
Higher pressure kiting
Hdebuff true but high cd, doesnt use class mechanic either
INSTA SNARE true but only for 1 sec if applied - not enough to escape at all
Self clns
M3 full clns (M2 is great tho) only affects magus or sorc squig is for example ailment...
Rkd (1s disarm ok by all means) would you trade cc immunity for 3 sec kd for nothing? For smallscale fights this is very very niche

[wonshot]

Data from 2-3 days is very weak for analysis

I do agree with that! And while a lot of the fireclowns have only played one game, the picture that only one out of fiftteen players can even get away from zero mmr does paint a picture.
https://imgur.com/a/kiUjA8s
Along with the released statistic of only one BW climbed into top 200 at spot 186 in the preseason.