A cheat, or not a cheat...

[GRUSZKA]

It was my first post, sure. While as it is easy to be check I joined Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:45 pm. Just I'm pretty shy and not too talkative.

My intention was to make a statement that as far as I know this person from the game, he is genuine and highly dedicated Order player.

Here also as I remember he wanted to take RAM to PvE, as he stated on region chat, to decay there. If it was the case that Destro destroyed it, then it was not intentional (I was little 'behind' that action still near keep walls and only joined when fight with that 'waiting behind' destro warband was already in place).

Not a matter for higher consideration.
In-game actions with in-game solutions.

Obviously it may be. Healthy discussion is always welcome. There are at least two points to consider / discuss.

1. Who is leading the siege and how to establish that leader? Usually these are Warbands leaders talking to each other. But how to make a call if we should stop the siege if numbers of enemy are against us? Who's decision could it be? Only the person that spawned the Ram? Some kind of poll like in scenario to surrender the siege?

2. Is stopping the siege a valid option? Or once we are at the enemy walls we should go until it's done one way or another? Obviously main negative outcome are 'Gold Bags' for the enemy for Keep Defense and negative impact on morale if you are wiped during siege on inner door (so last X minutes of fights is for nothing).
Currently few times last weeks I was in action where there were Rams spawned in highly unfavorable situation or even spawned and simply left at our Keep, to trigger other people to take it and start siege. Sure, that person who spawned ram was still there, but never in control of the ram nor coordinating anything. Like 'ram sponsor'. Only that in these cases these were suicidal sieges, giving destro 'free defense bags' and renown for clearing order forces at their keep.
So back to my question - is giving up the siege before outer door is down an option to consider? If yes - back to point 1 - who should make such decision?
As obviously such action / decision will always trigger 'unhappy' comments from people having less overview of the battlefield, as busy with fighting at given place and seeing that 'at my postern it is all good' or maybe having some wishful thinking that we will win no matter what. Or just maybe having different opinion on the situation in region. So person making this decision takes huge responsibility. And as yesterday's case shown, huge risk of being accused of xrealming (we all remember how region chat looked like) etc.

I also have to point out that instead of giving Destro free bags, he gave them US, over and over and over.

Not sure if I understand. But no matter if we continued siege or not, Tavern action would still happen and their almost effortless taking of our keep later too.

[don775]

I was there what happened was that a player made intentionally for that purpose in advance (green knight hy the name "kotbs") spawned ram and used it to lured us to an ambush.
Many order players left and remaining were going back and forth thanks to another wb leader (that I suspect was assisting him) to the same trap over and over, I honestly think its fair and I feel we will see more of that soon enough.

[Var6]

From someone who was there and in KOTBS' open WB at the time, it seemed like a sensible decision. There was a damaged ram on the gate (because a bunch of people decided they'd get baited off toward the Destro camp rather than look after it), a keep full of Destro, and more coming in every minute. The logical thing to do in a situation like this is to stop the siege and go somewhere else. Hanging around and getting farmed while also deciding to knock down the outer door of a three star keep and gift the opposing side a bag, on the other hand, is not so logical. I enjoy a bit of push and pull around Ogrund's Tavern as much as the next Dwarf/Elf/Manling, but there's no need to hand the forces of destruction your head on a platter.

[don775]

From someone who was there and in KOTBS' open WB at the time, it seemed like a sensible decision. There was a damaged ram on the gate (because a bunch of people decided they'd get baited off toward the Destro camp rather than look after it), a keep full of Destro, and more coming in every minute. The logical thing to do in a situation like this is to stop the siege and go somewhere else. Hanging around and getting farmed while also deciding to knock down the outer door of a three star keep and gift the opposing side a bag, on the other hand, is not so logical. I enjoy a bit of push and pull around Ogrund's Tavern as much as the next Dwarf/Elf/Manling, but there's no need to hand the forces of destruction your head on a platter.

Keep was nearly empty and we almost broke in since they hardly defended while their main forces was preparing to flank.

Fight was roughly 50 vs +80 around Tavern while the same wb that led the ram as mentioned above dragged the newbies to Tavern held by their melee, and the rest held the hill outside. As result Order couldn't really go anywhere, pointless BOs were guarded as well, and obviously most vetrans figured it cannot be won so they left or switched.

[Wraithedge]

It was my first post, sure. While as it is easy to be check I joined Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:45 pm. Just I'm pretty shy and not too talkative.

I wasn't trying to call you out, but I have seen others make a fuss about post count before. I just wanted to get ahead of that by stating that post count wasn't a consideration (for me) in this.

I fee like sieges have a beginning and an end. Its a very tangible way of saying "We won" or "We lost" and moving on.

What we got was betrayed en-mass and then spent the rest of the time there unsure if we were winning or losing, unsure whether it was worth it to stay and ultimately feed destro our RR by the spoon-full or chuck the sunk cost and just slink off to do something else.

And all that got decided for everyone there by one guy because he happened to be in control of the one thing necessary to continue the thing that everyone there showed up to do.

Did he think that they weren't going to get bags anyway at some point? Did he think that he could significantly impede progression by turning the evening into a mass culling?

I think the bottom line is that kotbs never should have been trusted on the ram.

Perhaps nobody knew that at the time.

But they know it now.

[Acidic]

If I remember correctly, the GM look at this as griefing your own side.
This is how they reacted when a certain Destro Guild that did a similar thing for similar reasons.

But this thread is well on its way to be a name and shame thread which will get the poster more problems I believe

[GamesBond]

A bit long but here's how I would explain it, as this is a double edged sword.

Technically, intentionally throwing any game mode is punishable, but the GMs can analyze the situation and thus have a better decision that is fair for both parties: The reported player and everyone else. There are several ways to win a siege, to bait the enemies and to win the overall campaign. These ways are not carved into stones; Each warband leader leads in their own way, some warband leaders rush the ram to the keep's door while other warband leaders prefer to keep roaming for hours with their warbands, rather than laying siege.

If you disagree with a warband leader, you can leave their warband and join someone else. If you believe all warband leaders are leading wrong, you can become a warband leader and you would be known whether you were amazing or terrible, so take care of your warband and its members.

After reading a few POVs, it's normal for the ones who weren't involved in the communication and decision to feel betrayed or frustrated. You can record and report the behavior of that player who threw the ram away. Your report needs context and a video recording, or a GM watching the incident live. The rest falls on the GM team though and you shouldn't expect any specific decision to be made based on how you personally are frustrated.

Now if I were you, I would put myself in their shoes first and act as someone responsible to entertain and guide 23 other people (or less/more) throughout the night. I would also look at the bigger image, before reporting that incident. What did it prevent, what would have happened if the ram wasn't destroyed and more importantly, what did we deny? Such incidents are often meant to deny the enemy contribution and bags which is a smart move.

TL;DR
The campaign is completely ran by the players, if you believe something is absolutely a toxic behavior that is meant to throw away hundreds of peoples efforts. Please do report it while making sure the proper context and proof are both present and honest. There is no 'one way' to lay siege and win a zone, there are several ways and many are correct. 'Warband leaders' are 'leaders', in a way they are higher than the average player and this is necessary to accept in order to maintain an organized faction on the battlefields.

If you're against all of the above, you should become a warband leader and experience the pressure by yourself. You will be judged for every decision and every fight, you will be spoken against and behind your back, you will be tea-bagged when you die, you will be subject to a lot of heated discussions. But at the end of the day, you will be the one helping the campaign, the server and the players.

[don775]

A bit long but here's how I would explain it, as this is a double edged sword.

Technically, intentionally throwing any game mode is punishable, but the GMs can analyze the situation and thus have a better decision that is fair for both parties: The reported player and everyone else. There are several ways to win a siege, to bait the enemies and to win the overall campaign. These ways are not carved into stones; Each warband leader leads in their own way, some warband leaders rush the ram to the keep's door while other warband leaders prefer to keep roaming for hours with their warbands, rather than laying siege.

If you disagree with a warband leader, you can leave their warband and join someone else. If you believe all warband leaders are leading wrong, you can become a warband leader and you would be known whether you were amazing or terrible, so take care of your warband and its members.

After reading a few POVs, it's normal for the ones who weren't involved in the communication and decision to feel betrayed or frustrated. You can record and report the behavior of that player who threw the ram away. Your report needs context and a video recording, or a GM watching the incident live. The rest falls on the GM team though and you shouldn't expect any specific decision to be made based on how you personally are frustrated.

Now if I were you, I would put myself in their shoes first and act as someone responsible to entertain and guide 23 other people (or less/more) throughout the night. I would also look at the bigger image, before reporting that incident. What did it prevent, what would have happened if the ram wasn't destroyed and more importantly, what did we deny? Such incidents are often meant to deny the enemy contribution and bags which is a smart move.

TL;DR
The campaign is completely ran by the players, if you believe something is absolutely a toxic behavior that is meant to throw away hundreds of peoples efforts. Please do report it while making sure the proper context and proof are both present and honest. There is no 'one way' to lay siege and win a zone, there are several ways and many are correct. 'Warband leaders' are 'leaders', in a way they are higher than the average player and this is necessary to accept in order to maintain an organized faction on the battlefields.

If you're against all of the above, you should become a warband leader and experience the pressure by yourself. You will be judged for every decision and every fight, you will be spoken against and behind your back, you will be tea-bagged when you die, you will be subject to a lot of heated discussions. But at the end of the day, you will be the one helping the campaign, the server and the players.

In other words report the scapegoat and try not to lose the hopeless fight.

[GamesBond]

Spoiler:

A bit long but here's how I would explain it, as this is a double edged sword.

Technically, intentionally throwing any game mode is punishable, but the GMs can analyze the situation and thus have a better decision that is fair for both parties: The reported player and everyone else. There are several ways to win a siege, to bait the enemies and to win the overall campaign. These ways are not carved into stones; Each warband leader leads in their own way, some warband leaders rush the ram to the keep's door while other warband leaders prefer to keep roaming for hours with their warbands, rather than laying siege.

If you disagree with a warband leader, you can leave their warband and join someone else. If you believe all warband leaders are leading wrong, you can become a warband leader and you would be known whether you were amazing or terrible, so take care of your warband and its members.

After reading a few POVs, it's normal for the ones who weren't involved in the communication and decision to feel betrayed or frustrated. You can record and report the behavior of that player who threw the ram away. Your report needs context and a video recording, or a GM watching the incident live. The rest falls on the GM team though and you shouldn't expect any specific decision to be made based on how you personally are frustrated.

Now if I were you, I would put myself in their shoes first and act as someone responsible to entertain and guide 23 other people (or less/more) throughout the night. I would also look at the bigger image, before reporting that incident. What did it prevent, what would have happened if the ram wasn't destroyed and more importantly, what did we deny? Such incidents are often meant to deny the enemy contribution and bags which is a smart move.

TL;DR
The campaign is completely ran by the players, if you believe something is absolutely a toxic behavior that is meant to throw away hundreds of peoples efforts. Please do report it while making sure the proper context and proof are both present and honest. There is no 'one way' to lay siege and win a zone, there are several ways and many are correct. 'Warband leaders' are 'leaders', in a way they are higher than the average player and this is necessary to accept in order to maintain an organized faction on the battlefields.

If you're against all of the above, you should become a warband leader and experience the pressure by yourself. You will be judged for every decision and every fight, you will be spoken against and behind your back, you will be tea-bagged when you die, you will be subject to a lot of heated discussions. But at the end of the day, you will be the one helping the campaign, the server and the players.

In other words report the scapegoat and try not to lose the hopeless fight.

Pretty sure I hinted that there are different tactical decisions and while one can report any other player on the server, a proper context and video would be needed for the case mentioned in this thread. Yet the main point remains whether the GM sees the report as a valid one or just a misunderstanding of the battlefield. After all RvR is super dynamic and there are no specific rules to how someone is allowed to lead and what resources can someone use/bait/spend for the sake of the campaign in general. I have also asked the players to see a different perspective before reporting.

[Acidic]

Spoiler:

A bit long but here's how I would explain it, as this is a double edged sword.

Technically, intentionally throwing any game mode is punishable, but the GMs can analyze the situation and thus have a better decision that is fair for both parties: The reported player and everyone else. There are several ways to win a siege, to bait the enemies and to win the overall campaign. These ways are not carved into stones; Each warband leader leads in their own way, some warband leaders rush the ram to the keep's door while other warband leaders prefer to keep roaming for hours with their warbands, rather than laying siege.

If you disagree with a warband leader, you can leave their warband and join someone else. If you believe all warband leaders are leading wrong, you can become a warband leader and you would be known whether you were amazing or terrible, so take care of your warband and its members.

After reading a few POVs, it's normal for the ones who weren't involved in the communication and decision to feel betrayed or frustrated. You can record and report the behavior of that player who threw the ram away. Your report needs context and a video recording, or a GM watching the incident live. The rest falls on the GM team though and you shouldn't expect any specific decision to be made based on how you personally are frustrated.

Now if I were you, I would put myself in their shoes first and act as someone responsible to entertain and guide 23 other people (or less/more) throughout the night. I would also look at the bigger image, before reporting that incident. What did it prevent, what would have happened if the ram wasn't destroyed and more importantly, what did we deny? Such incidents are often meant to deny the enemy contribution and bags which is a smart move.

TL;DR
The campaign is completely ran by the players, if you believe something is absolutely a toxic behavior that is meant to throw away hundreds of peoples efforts. Please do report it while making sure the proper context and proof are both present and honest. There is no 'one way' to lay siege and win a zone, there are several ways and many are correct. 'Warband leaders' are 'leaders', in a way they are higher than the average player and this is necessary to accept in order to maintain an organized faction on the battlefields.

If you're against all of the above, you should become a warband leader and experience the pressure by yourself. You will be judged for every decision and every fight, you will be spoken against and behind your back, you will be tea-bagged when you die, you will be subject to a lot of heated discussions. But at the end of the day, you will be the one helping the campaign, the server and the players.

In other words report the scapegoat and try not to lose the hopeless fight.

Pretty sure I hinted that there are different tactical decisions and while one can report any other player on the server, a proper context and video would be needed for the case mentioned in this thread. Yet the main point remains whether the GM sees the report as a valid one or just a misunderstanding of the battlefield. After all RvR is super dynamic and there are no specific rules to how someone is allowed to lead and what resources can someone use/bait/spend for the sake of the campaign in general. I have also asked the players to see a different perspective before reporting.

For consistency when Destro did this, the message was very crystal clear. Could not find the post so from memory was the following.

Actively taking the ram to be destroyed (Destro case they took it to PVE) was considered greifing . It was not appropriate for a player to deny other players the chance to continue the siege. So if they wanted to stop the siege at say 2% they had to convince the realm to abandon the siege and effectively leave the ram in place.

The justification was that the approach was to not have grey areas.