Choppa Pull, fix or delete it?

[Panel]

Personal preference is to fix it not delete it. Every order player is subject to GTDC- free kill - but only destro players that use block/parry are subject to rampage i.e tanks/melee. Rampage does not increase the damage of slayer abilities, it allows it to bypass block/parry. Even then the damage has to get through armour/toughness/ resists. Against toons that dont use block/parry rampage does nothing. Against a sorc for example a flurry that does 500 will do 500 with rampage or without it. I think ppl are are over estimating the strength of both GTDC and Rampage. GTDC needs to start obeying los and terrain/buildings and it wouldn't be such an issue.

[Earthcake]

Just keep in mind that Order got far less melee(tanks) than Destro and making the choppa too raw(i.e for every slayer at least 3 choppas can be observed in the lakes) wouldn't be a good idea unless Order tanks are included in the equation.

Why would we adjust classes based on the fact, that order pugs tend to play range classes? Both sides have viable classes per archtype, so if one sides loses because of too few front line classes, players have to fix it, not devs.

That's not true. Remember when there was about 3 goblins total on the whole server ?
And then suddently 60% of destro were playing goblins and there were 300 of them in each zone ?

What happenend there ? When they were weak, noone would play them. When they were OP, everybody would have one.
Of course devs can shift class distribution, it has been seen in each and every game ever, and here also again and again.

Same for tanks, if destro tanks > order tanks, tanks "lovers" will play them on destro.

[Farrul]

Just keep in mind that Order got far less melee(tanks) than Destro and making the choppa too raw(i.e for every slayer at least 3 choppas can be observed in the lakes) wouldn't be a good idea unless Order tanks are included in the equation.

Why would we adjust classes based on the fact, that order pugs tend to play range classes? Both sides have viable classes per archtype, so if one sides loses because of too few front line classes, players have to fix it, not devs.

The average player does not have the patience/will to fix anything if they perceive it is an unfair situation proven by x-realming ( can't blame them game is for entertainment purpose, shouldn't be a second job).

If under too much pressure they will likely crumble and give up, perhaps this is exactly what the game has needed though for a long time to reveal flaws, no doubt it comes with risks.

All classes are of course viable but it's not the same as being balanced amongst themselves or equivalent in capability, balance adjustments are sometimes needed to keep players realistically interested in the game(i.e player retention).

[Farrul]

Same for tanks, if destro tanks > order tanks, tanks "lovers" will play them on destro.

I agree but there could be other causes for tank shortage on Order than just in terms of balance strength, i don't wish to go off-topic but here is my theory for each of them:

Kotbs:

Spoiler:

This tank lacks diversity of play, more specifically a viable damage spec(not utility support dps). Fix that and i'm sure it would become a lot more popular(like the Chosen mirror having the option to spec for damage). Utility can be nerfed a bit to compensate.

SM:

Spoiler:

stands up good to the BO mirror and is more meta than BO due to WW (BO is just tankier though in SnB, perhaps fix the crappy 13 point in Vaul tree). However what i think SM truly needs to make it more popular is an aesthetical face-lift, give it some proper plate-armor and replace all those robes and uglier helms in several sets (good skins are everywhere, Caledor/Palace Guards etc, coud re-skin a few BG skins with a lighter palette).

IB:

Spoiler:

The only Order tank i think is in need of direct buffs, more specifically increased Oath buff duration(from 10 to 15 seconds) and slight improved resource managagment to better stand up to the BG mirror(rising anger need to be baseline and not a tactic, BG still has the advantage of the channeling attack regenerating hate )

[tazdingo]

(BO is just tankier though in SnB, perhaps fix the crappy 13 point in Vaul tree)

bo/sm mid 13 is awesome, ppl need to stop sleeping on that

also gtdc is annoying as all hell but you'd have to replace it with something very good. rampage is extremely oppressive

[Sulorie]

rampage is extremely oppressive

Compare gtdc with ID, not rampage.

You should compare rampage with choppa ap gain finisher at 5pts, which makes the gap much more obvious.

[Bavradai]

Give melee squigs rampage.
Call it Squiggageddon.

[malark]

Same for tanks, if destro tanks > order tanks, tanks "lovers" will play them on destro.

I only post in a thread like this because on some level I worry that you might end up with a false concencus that leads to bad changes getting made. This kind of blanket statements is what worries me.

Just stuff that almost blatantly isn't true, Order do have plenty of tanks, they are hardly getting smashed all over the place by destro tanks that I can see. There isn't just Order playing RDPS, I mean just play the game, a lot of the time order is nothing but a melee ball, an effective one, there's witch hunter gank groups all over the lakes. Order runs slayers in their organised groups for a reason. Anyway, last post from me, pretty much said what I want to say. By the way, nice post time for your post there

[Earthcake]

Same for tanks, if destro tanks > order tanks, tanks "lovers" will play them on destro.

I only post in a thread like this because on some level I worry that you might end up with a false concencus that leads to bad changes getting made. This kind of blanket statements is what worries me.

Just stuff that almost blatantly isn't true, Order do have plenty of tanks, they are hardly getting smashed all over the place by destro tanks that I can see. There isn't just Order playing RDPS, I mean just play the game, a lot of the time order is nothing but a melee ball, an effective one, there's witch hunter gank groups all over the lakes. Order runs slayers in their organised groups for a reason. Anyway, last post from me, pretty much said what I want to say. By the way, nice post time for your post there

Yes, you r right, as everybody will tell you, order got an overabundance of tanks and destro r all rdps...

[Vuorinorri]

You can have it the very moment destro tanks are tuned down to order tanks in defensives.

Mind to clarify that? Imho it's pretty much same if u just build them so. Differences sure since there is no 100% mirrors but pretty balanced imo