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Return the RF landing flag

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#21 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:59 pm

FippyDarkPaw wrote:
Penril wrote:
FippyDarkPaw wrote:It's inarguable that the removal of the Landing has just made the SC more of a zerg v zerg. Which is not a good thing considering current class/tier imbalances. Removing the landing is basically removing the ability to win more on strategy rather than brute force, gear, and the class to healer ratio.
1) 12v12 is not Zerg vs Zerg.
2) The "strategy" you mention was simply avoiding fights and just capping undefended flags.
Undefended because people like to fight each other at the Landing instead of spreading out in a smart way and completing the objectives. Which is supposed to cause a bit of disorder so players can think and/or plan their way out of it instead of just trying to muscle the other team into submission. Which sucks because players who aren't decked out, level cap, or have a bad composition of players are now screwed.
People like to fight at landing because it is the nearest fight they can find.

Newsflash: Many people will rather fight instead of capping a flag, carrying a banner/bomb, etc. Why? It is simply more fun. This is the reason why Eternal Citadel was so popular, and Thunder Valley was hated.

I really don't care if i lose the SC as long as i got a good fight and in the end my side got more kills than theirs. I'm not alone on this.

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FippyDarkPaw
Posts: 25

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#22 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:17 pm

I agree. It's very fun. But why not Queue for everything else or do some RVR instead of altering a Scenario?

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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#23 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:23 pm

FippyDarkPaw wrote:I agree. It's very fun. But why not Queue for everything else or do some RVR instead of altering a Scenario?
Because people want variety. Doing nothing but GoE and Nordenwatch can get boring at times, especially because they become one sides really quickly. Why the devs decided to add RF of all things is beyond me, rather had Serpent's Passage instead, or B4P. Still, removing the Landing at least made the scenario more bearable to queue for. Now we can actually fight around the entire scenario instead of only the landing, and it might be the best scenario for leveling because win or lose, you're probably going to get some exp/rr from the scenario. ;)
Agrot 35/40 Aggychopp 32/40
Grelin of Magnus/Badlands ;)

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#24 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:25 pm

It's inarguable that the removal of the Landing has just made the SC more of a zerg v zerg. Which is not a good thing considering current class/tier imbalances. Removing the landing is basically removing the ability to win more on strategy rather than brute force, gear, and the class to healer ratio.

It's not the end of the world. But I feel like a bit too much artistic license is being taken here.
Was there ever an official response as to why The Landing was removed?
It's not "inarguable" at all.

The problem was that having battles at the Landing resulted in the entire force taking the most direct path, through boring, open ground, to hit each other, ignoring the rest of the flags. This would inevitably end in a pure camp at the spawn which was very difficult to break, as the only route out was blocked. In most scenarios you couldn't get people to cap even if you tried. This also had the side effect that all of the design of the Factory and rear area was being completely ignored. If you want a linear scenario, Gates of Ekrund is for you.

Moving the battle outside of the Landing takes it more into the other three flags. Your issue is that PUGs don't use strategy, and as such will ignore all the alternate paths in favour of taking the next closest beeline. That they do so does not matter too much, as long as better groups can actually flank and use alternate routes.

The second advantage of removing the Landing flag is that it allowed the spawns and guards to be pushed up, thus keeping the secondary routes (under the bridge to the Landing and out towards the latter two BOs, plus the wooden platforms up to the Factory roof on Order's side) open. This helps a lot with the spawncamping, and is the primary reason that the Landing flag was removed.

Finally, I'm a little offended at "too much artistic license". It seems people have a lot of respect for the devs when they're doing what everyone wants, but when something new is tried to deal with a proven problem, suddenly they're going too far.
Pretty much. This is WoW's problem right now. People complaining and wanting changes without a greater sense of the game as a whole, and the Blizzard giving in to them. Too much bias. I feel like the official developers who created this game and never changed RF had a reason they didn't change it. That's one thing I loved about Reikland, it required more than just a gear check and skill.
Making assumptions about what the developers of this game thought is a waste of time. You can't ask them; neither can I. Therefore, analyse the game for what it is - don't resort to claiming that because the original developers never changed it, it was fine. Had the game been shut down a little earlier, we could be sat here having this discussion about bomb groups and I bet some BW or Sorc would come in making exactly the same argument.

While the outlook I'm about to explain is not shared by everyone on the staff, I view it like this: people can talk about whatever changes they want. That's what a discussion forum is for. We're under no obligation to implement them (regardless of whether we may implement other, similar changes), and if they suck, the community themselves can serve as a means of displaying that through proper analysis and debate.

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FippyDarkPaw
Posts: 25

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#25 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:26 pm

magter3001 wrote:
FippyDarkPaw wrote:I agree. It's very fun. But why not Queue for everything else or do some RVR instead of altering a Scenario?
Because people want variety. Doing nothing but GoE and Nordenwatch can get boring at times, especially because they become one sides really quickly. Why the devs decided to add RF of all things is beyond me, rather had Serpent's Passage instead, or B4P. Still, removing the Landing at least made the scenario more bearable to queue for. Now we can actually fight around the entire scenario instead of only the landing, and it might be the best scenario for leveling because win or lose, you're probably going to get some exp/rr from the scenario. ;)
If they want variety, why did they want Reikland changed to another Ekrund?

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magter3001
Posts: 1284

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#26 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:33 pm

FippyDarkPaw wrote:
Spoiler:
magter3001 wrote:
FippyDarkPaw wrote:I agree. It's very fun. But why not Queue for everything else or do some RVR instead of altering a Scenario?
Because people want variety. Doing nothing but GoE and Nordenwatch can get boring at times, especially because they become one sides really quickly. Why the devs decided to add RF of all things is beyond me, rather had Serpent's Passage instead, or B4P. Still, removing the Landing at least made the scenario more bearable to queue for. Now we can actually fight around the entire scenario instead of only the landing, and it might be the best scenario for leveling because win or lose, you're probably going to get some exp/rr from the scenario. ;)
If they want variety, why did they want Reikland changed to another Ekrund?
Except Reikland is nothing like Ekrund. Ekrund has 3 flags, all in a straight line. RF has 3 flags in a triangular pattern. This means you have to retake flags more ofen than in Ekrund. 2nd, it's a lot harder to spawn camp in RF than it is in Ekrund. 3rd, it's better to level up for low level characters.

The Landing distracted everything and gave way to more spawn camping, something that is greatly reduced with the current RF. ;)
Agrot 35/40 Aggychopp 32/40
Grelin of Magnus/Badlands ;)

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#27 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:35 pm

People should stop saying "If the original WAR devs left it like that, they must have had a reason".

Original WAR devs made a **** ton of mistakes in every area of the game (PvE, class balancing, RvR... you name it).

grumcajs
Posts: 378

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#28 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:37 pm

Penril wrote:People should stop saying "If the original WAR devs left it like that, they must have had a reason".

Original WAR devs made a **** ton of mistakes in every area of the game (PvE, class balancing, RvR... you name it).
yep. not to mention "original WAR devs" usually havent changed a **** cuz they couldnt care less about balance, improving the game, mechanic...whatever...

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FippyDarkPaw
Posts: 25

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#29 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:37 pm

Azarael wrote: The problem was that having battles at the Landing resulted in the entire force taking the most direct path, through boring, open ground, to hit each other, ignoring the rest of the flags. This would inevitably end in a pure camp at the spawn which was very difficult to break, as the only route out was blocked. In most scenarios you couldn't get people to cap even if you tried. This also had the side effect that all of the design of the Factory and rear area was being completely ignored. If you want a linear scenario, Gates of Ekrund is for you.

Moving the battle outside of the Landing takes it more into the other three flags. Your issue is that PUGs don't use strategy, and as such will ignore all the alternate paths in favour of taking the next closest beeline. That they do so does not matter too much, as long as better groups can actually flank and use alternate routes.

The second advantage of removing the Landing flag is that it allowed the spawns and guards to be pushed up, thus keeping the secondary routes (under the bridge to the Landing and out towards the latter two BOs, plus the wooden platforms up to the Factory roof on Order's side) open. This helps a lot with the spawncamping, and is the primary reason that the Landing flag was removed.

Finally, I'm a little offended at "too much artistic license". It seems people have a lot of respect for the devs when they're doing what everyone wants, but when something new is tried to deal with a proven problem, suddenly they're going too far.
Pretty much. This is WoW's problem right now. People complaining and wanting changes without a greater sense of the game as a whole, and the Blizzard giving in to them. Too much bias. I feel like the official developers who created this game and never changed RF had a reason they didn't change it. That's one thing I loved about Reikland, it required more than just a gear check and skill.
Making assumptions about what the developers of this game thought is a waste of time. You can't ask them; neither can I. Therefore, analyse the game for what it is - don't resort to claiming that because the original developers never changed it, it was fine. Had the game been shut down a little earlier, we could be sat here having this discussion about bomb groups and I bet some BW or Sorc would come in making exactly the same argument.

While the outlook I'm about to explain is not shared by everyone on the staff, I view it like this: people can talk about whatever changes they want. That's what a discussion forum is for. We're under no obligation to implement them (regardless of whether we may implement other, similar changes), and if they suck, the community themselves can serve as a means of displaying that through proper analysis and debate.

This is the players choice. If they want to beat their heads against a brick wall, I personally would let them. I don't understand why that merits a change.

Pugs don't use strategy, but that's why they have 2 other SCs to more directly fight each other.

Those routes were always open, they just weren't utilized. In my experience, they still aren't really utilized. And it doesn't help with spawn camping. The landing and guards don't help with spawn camping. In both T1 and T2, it's still pretty easy to push people back to their spawn (the side entrance/path to back flags.) and keep them there.

I meant no offense. It's not my server, my money paying for it, or my hard work developing it. It was an opinion, not to be taken as a personal jab. It's just that this decision worries me about the future of the server, so I'm voicing my opinion.

And you're absolutely right. Just because official devs did it, doesn't make it the best decision. But I tend to trust Mythic developers with years of experience a little more. And it's not purely just the devs decisions, and this might be one of those cases.

Finally, I'm not strongly against the removal of The Landing. I just feel like enough people said they wanted it, so it was given. Which is a fine line to walk.
Except Reikland is nothing like Ekrund. Ekrund has 3 flags, all in a straight line. RF has 3 flags in a triangular pattern. This means you have to retake flags more ofen than in Ekrund. 2nd, it's a lot harder to spawn camp in RF than it is in Ekrund. 3rd, it's better to level up for low level characters.

The Landing distracted everything and gave way to more spawn camping, something that is greatly reduced with the current RF. ;)
You're right, it's just more like Nordland now.
Last edited by FippyDarkPaw on Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Return the RF landing flag

Post#30 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:41 pm

grumcajs wrote:
Penril wrote:People should stop saying "If the original WAR devs left it like that, they must have had a reason".

Original WAR devs made a **** ton of mistakes in every area of the game (PvE, class balancing, RvR... you name it).
yep. not to mention "original WAR devs" usually havent changed a **** cuz they couldnt care less about balance, improving the game, mechanic...whatever...
I think in all my 5 years of playing WAR, the only one who actually cared was Keaven Freeman. Nice guy.

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