Lots of Numbers: T4 PUG SCs

[Toshutkidup]

I would agree with Detangler here. Tanks isn’t the issue, it’s pug meta. Destro pugs generally favor mdps meta and order generally favors rdps. On top of that I would argue that 3/5 of the PuG sc’s also favor a mdps meta.

[wonshot]

I've been enjoying this gamemode for casual playsessions, allows for that smaller content where you dont have people around or not in the mood for a full tryhard group and you just wanna play with one mate or alone and not facing overly stacked 6mans in a pvp-on-demand gamemode.

That being said, I might be wrong in this gutfeeling but it is simply just more rough to pug on Order than on Destro. Often times you get less support (tanks/heals/more dpsheals) than on Destro, and often times there are more people progressing than simply enjoying to play a "geared" toon (carry vs getting carried). Which leads to a rougher pug enviroment on Order imo. Surely with good sessions too where you do have the support or geared people on Order & Destro alike.

One thing though, that the numbers in the original post are not covering is how many times a realm-side are outnumbered in solo'ers vs duo'ers which i would assume is as big of a factor as the composition indifference.

[Sulorie]

I might be wrong but for me the main reason for Order losing more is less healers, less tanks and teethless rdps that simply cannot kill tanks or guarded targets in small scale SCs. It requires an army to bring down a single SOV tank even when they are not getting heals. In SCs the SOVs tanks are nearly unkillable with some heals, especially the Shaman dual hotting that gives around 1000+ health per tick and 250 toughness. We also know from the previous career break down posts that there are LOT of shamans and that destro tanks do roughly twice the damage of the order tanks. I think that is the most frustrating aspect of the game. People are playing dps and can't kill certain targets. Then they go **** this and leave.

Let's correct your statements, shall we?
You are not healing for 1000 with 2 dot ticks unless you have healbless from zealot or going wild with willpower, what you shouldn't do.
You wouldn't heal that much anyway, because there are healdebuffs on focus targets.
You don't bring down tanks to kill guarded targets, you remove the tank with CC, ideally combined with CC on their healers.
You shouldn't worry about unkillable tanks, albeit this is a myth, because those are the last target you kill, when healers are already dead or busy trying to survive.
There are a few full def tanks doing SC but they are more or less useless.
Tanks die just fine in assist, when you clear up the few remaining opponents. It might only feel slow if doing it solo.

"It requires an army to bring down a single SOV tank even when they are not getting heals."
Whatever exaggeration you can get to support your claim, no?

[AgentSlevin]

I would agree with Detangler here. Tanks isn’t the issue, it’s pug meta. Destro pugs generally favor mdps meta and order generally favors rdps. On top of that I would argue that 3/5 of the PuG sc’s also favor a mdps meta.

mdps meta is definitely better and more survivable. They get better synergy as well. Ranged not only are more squishy and have to stop dps and run until in safe distance to resume dps they also have minimum CC / anti CC mechanism. A melee can remove slow, charge, flee, pull, knock down at 35 feet, slow at 65 feet and catch up making kitting very difficult when in sc or jumped. 1 mistake from a ranged and it dies.. while melee is easier to get away and out of range. As a main ranged player i have to say that the dominance of ranged is long gone. So in a composition with heavy ranged(order mainly) even with healers is super hard. The Pug SC is a dice roll of what you get regarding composition, gear and class / mechanic knowledge. Some fights are harder than others even with 2/2/2 pug. When the tanks don't guard, don't guard switch or even check where help is needed its hard to win, not to mention that target assisting is almost non existing in my experience in pugs with a few exceptions.

Bottom line: Yes the systems has issues, current meta is in melee favor and player skill / knowledge of the game / class / mechanics is low.

[lumpi33]

I might be wrong but for me the main reason for Order losing more is less healers, less tanks and teethless rdps that simply cannot kill tanks or guarded targets in small scale SCs. It requires an army to bring down a single SOV tank even when they are not getting heals. In SCs the SOVs tanks are nearly unkillable with some heals, especially the Shaman dual hotting that gives around 1000+ health per tick and 250 toughness. We also know from the previous career break down posts that there are LOT of shamans and that destro tanks do roughly twice the damage of the order tanks. I think that is the most frustrating aspect of the game. People are playing dps and can't kill certain targets. Then they go **** this and leave.

Let's correct your statements, shall we?
You are not healing for 1000 with 2 dot ticks unless you have healbless from zealot or going wild with willpower, what you shouldn't do.
You wouldn't heal that much anyway, because there are healdebuffs on focus targets.
You don't bring down tanks to kill guarded targets, you remove the tank with CC, ideally combined with CC on their healers.
You shouldn't worry about unkillable tanks, albeit this is a myth, because those are the last target you kill, when healers are already dead or busy trying to survive.
There are a few full def tanks doing SC but they are more or less useless.
Tanks die just fine in assist, when you clear up the few remaining opponents. It might only feel slow if doing it solo.

"It requires an army to bring down a single SOV tank even when they are not getting heals."
Whatever exaggeration you can get to support your claim, no?

Im not gonna argue with you Sulorie. What I said is not wrong and nothing you said changed that. You are always picking single points and details without looking at the bigger picture someone was trying to draw.

The picture was "I might be wrong but for me the main reason for Order losing more is less healers, less tanks and teethless rdps that simply cannot kill tanks or guarded targets in small scale SCs." and not about killing single SOV tanks.

[Sulorie]

Im not gonna argue with you Sulorie. What I said is not wrong and nothing you said changed that. You are always picking single points and details without looking at the bigger picture someone was trying to draw.

The picture was "I might be wrong but for me the main reason for Order losing more is less healers, less tanks and teethless rdps that simply cannot kill tanks or guarded targets in small scale SCs." and not about killing single SOV tanks.

You can't be wrong, when you express your own perception why order is losing more often.
The reasoning you added in order to explain said perception was IMO flawed, and therefore I was arguing it.
You can't argue "a bigger picture", because you can only discuss individual points made to support a claim.

[SuperStar]

Hello,

here is an evaluation of T4 PUG scenarios (the last 5717 rounds played):

Note: The result is scollable

Code: Select all

SC DUO/T4 - Total SCs evaluated: 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order SCs rounds won: 2529 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro SCs rounds won: 3188 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with more players: 892 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with more players: 678 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with +1 player: 750 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with +1 player and 1 quitter: 509 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with +1 player: 576 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with +1 player and 1 quitter: 419 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with +2 players: 121 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with +2 players: 88 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order with >= +3 players: 21 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro with >= +3 players: 14 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side total quitters: 1336 in 5717 rounds
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side total quitters: 1145 in 5717 rounds
SC DUO/T4 - Order side with no tanks: 283 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side with no tanks: 218 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side with no healers: 236 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side with no healers: 155 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side with no dps: 5 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side with no dps: 4 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side no healers and won: 35 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side no healers and won: 33 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side no healers and loss: 201 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side no healers and loss: 122 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side no tanks and won: 91 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side no tanks and won: 89 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order side no tanks and loss: 192 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro side no tanks and loss: 129 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 1388 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 2105 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 2224 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order having 2/2/2 comp (1/3 tanks, 1/3 healers, 1/3 dps): 149 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro having 2/2/2 comp (1/3 tanks, 1/3 healers, 1/3 dps): 209 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order having 2/2/2 comp and won (independent of Destro comp): 85 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro having 2/2/2 comp and won (independent of Order comp): 140 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order 2/2/2 vs Destro 2/2/2 and Order won: 4 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro 2/2/2 vs Order 2/2/2 and Destro won: 5 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order 2/2/2 comp vs Destro with no 2/2/2: 140 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro 2/2/2 comp vs Order with no 2/2/2: 200 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order 2/2/2 comp vs Destro with no 2/2/2 and won:81 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro 2/2/2 comp vs Order with no 2/2/2 and won: 135 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order 2/2/2 comp vs Destro with no 2/2/2 and loss: 59 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro 2/2/2 comp vs Order with no 2/2/2 and loss: 65 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of tanks in SC: 23,26
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of tanks in SC: 27,01
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of healers in SC: 24,59
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of healers in SC: 27,68
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of dps in SC: 52,15
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of dps in SC: 45,32
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of mdps in SC: 27,17
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of mdps in SC: 24,36
SC DUO/T4 - Order avg % of rdps in SC (SW as rpds): 24,98
SC DUO/T4 - Destro avg % of rdps in SC (SH as rdps): 20,95

What can we tell from this?

- Destro is winning more PUG SCs.

- Destro is dominating a lot more rounds (24% order, 36% destro, rest balanced)

- Destro has more tanks and healers in there, Order more dps.

- There are almost no rounds without any healers

- There are lots of quitters

The most important take away for me is this:

The SC T4 Standard evaluation I did some time ago (viewtopic.php?t=48813) showed that only 1/3 of all T4 SCs are basically balanced in kills and 2/3 are heavily dominated by one side.

SC STANDARD/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 4655 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 4122 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 4819 of 13596

This evaluation showed that the ratio is a bit better and there are slightly more balanced SCs but still a lot of domination going on and a lot of quitters.

SC DUO/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 1388 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 2105 of 5717
SC DUO/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 2224 of 5717

I might be wrong but for me the main reason for Order losing more is less healers, less tanks and teethless rdps that simply cannot kill tanks or guarded targets in small scale SCs. It requires an army to bring down a single SOV tank even when they are not getting heals. In SCs the SOVs tanks are nearly unkillable with some heals, especially the Shaman dual hotting that gives around 1000+ health per tick and 250 toughness. We also know from the previous career break down posts that there are LOT of shamans and that destro tanks do roughly twice the damage of the order tanks. I think that is the most frustrating aspect of the game. People are playing dps and can't kill certain targets. Then they go **** this and leave.

Id start with nerfing that no crit vs absorbs mechanic. Crits matter a lot when it comes to damage. When you crit less you do less damage. When aborbs are up you don't crit and your damage gets absorbed. With RP/Zealot, SM/BG, WP/DOK and all the self absorbs there are tons of absorbs where you can't crit. That non crit on absorb mechanic needs to go.

Cheers

The datas are very good but i have a very different conclusion than yours. Most of us wrote it. Rdps in a capture based sc will stand and cast from their wc. AND Its totally fine. This is why they ranged. Imagine if they can kill a mdps in mellee ranged we shouldn't call them rdps. It would be heresy. Like a mdps can kill rdps in ranged. (Forget about mara and welf now )

The tanks these days as soft imo die like a fly. Do not need nerf there imo. (BUFF BLACKORK plz best looking worst tank imo)

Absorb is so little its usually one auto attack on a dps. Its cool you cannot crit it imo.

I would like to ask you again bring your datas on solo kills and premade 6vs6 sc too.

Keep up the good work interesting datas.

[tazdingo]

dps tanks feel very overtuned right now. dps tanks + at least 1 or 2 healers is genuinely the best composition for pug scs. if your group has no healers you can literally just plow through with ravage and chosen/BO grp heals, which are very commonly run in pubs. tank 2h dmg needs to be toned down and replaced with utility

[Akalukz]

Chosen heals are about 57 a tick, super over tuned.... do KoTBS not get the same? Oh wait it's only 4x per tic, what's that? They can increase all healing for thier group as well? Man too bad that chosen is over-tuned with his healing power. /sarcasm off

Pug scenario is a godsend, no matter what. Broken/not broken stacked solo player or not. At least destro isn't facing 2/2/2 slayer groups. I think that is the real reason more players flock to the pug scenario, the brokenness of the "group" queue (pug v pre) and certain meta builds that way over perform. You can look at the compostion of the group queue and 90% of the tim you can figure out who will win before the first blow is struck. Pug queue, there is almost always a chance, even with sov players.

[Nameless]

The problem on orders side at sc's is lack of frontline. That is happening cos tanks had not appealing aesthetics and/or low dmg and then add too many rdps that urgently needs solid frontline.

And the biggest newly added problem from my pov is that there is no save spots at sc's any more (or there are less and less scs with such feature). On live even when farmed hardcore there is a chance some careless enemy dps to be send to guards and being insta killed from which u got kill contrb and renown. On ror you got nothing so when dominated at sc there is 0 iniative to even try whatsoever. Thanks god there is .surrender vote.