Surrender

[miklosch]

Do destro players, who win most SC need further buffs? Aren't SC results individual issues, which can't be fixed with general adjustments?

i do agree that i see somes des tanks that doesnt use guard, and i see a lot more guarded players on order, and i do agree that most of lost sc are due to lack of skills awareness, we have many sc without healers and order has a lot, this can't be fixed by skills adjustements and dev cant do nothing about it, well they could with a MM system that force kind of 2/2/2 or at least 1 heal on each party, and the sc doesnt start until there is no at least 2 or 3 healer on each part.

But all this issue can be fixed with team gameplay, learning with people, and the lack of guild in destro that allow that learning is increasing, leading with more and more PU players, few wb premade, almost none premade T4 sc etc

I wish not to move this topic about rampage versus etc but i wish to enlight that this lack of guilds activities on destro is an actual problem, surrender very fast is one of the consequences. We all know the result of PU vs premades.
I do agree that this is no fun for order also, i do think that this is no fun for any one.
Why almost all actives guilds move/are on order is the core issue to me. What make them move there?

[normanis]

Everytime im vs a premade as solo queue. the surrender option should be instant. Let premade play vs premades.

Not enough premades, increase the rewards for them then.

There is, it's called ranked. Which there has been no match since when??? Anyone?

that why ranked is dead, because ppl whant easy farm kills to polish feathers than sweat in ranked.

[Tuxedo013]

If surrender does not get trough you can always respawn in warcamp and go to nearest exit. Only problem is that Piramid of Settra and Saccelum Arena still dont have exits. I hope they implement them soon!

[Sofong]

Not enough premades, increase the rewards for them then.

There is, it's called ranked. Which there has been no match since when??? Anyone?

that why ranked is dead, because ppl whant easy farm kills to polish feathers than sweat in ranked.

ranked is a better and fairer game mode over all, fact that ranked died just proved that ppl in this game not interested in "skill" or "competition" after all.

[Lisutaris]

The idea of making the surrender option based on min points or points also sounds terrible.
At least if you need to get some points first.... alot of SCs are 500 to 0-20.

I would agree to some sort of locking the option if the score difference is ~below 20% or so. That's the point where you can still win or lose if the enemy outplays you.
Downside to this system is still the same ... if ppl know how it works, it is easy to abuse by just farming the ppl at the spawn zone and not playing objectives at all.

Having the .surr option at min 11 like it is now, ist maybe not the best solution but gives everyone the same rights to decide what they want to do and helps to counter spawn farming and abusing the SC objectives.
(Best example is Demonrally -> one player taking the obj... joins the spawn farming... no one gets points, well except some for the dominating team via kills ... still takes forever -> would be 125? kills as one grants 4 points ?
--> Now such behaviour can at least be "punished" by staying in the spawn area, not giving kills and do an elegant surrender at 11m. E
--> Every change to the current system should have such scenarios in mind and make such situations better or prevent them at all.)

[Bozzax]

Observations
1. Current mechanic yields MAX number of group vs pug stomps (by design). Pug vs Pug sc are mostly avoided (outside of disc) and group vs group seems to be super rare (less then 1 out of 20)
2. An opposing weaker group will dodge after 1-2 losses
3. A strong group will drain the other side of experienced/geared 1-3 mans quickly making it even more one sided. They know they will be "looped" vs the same pre-made and dodge
4. kill-board is abused to join the free surrender-crest-train-gravy
5. Odd change to barriers (instead of guards) effectively kills recovery
6. Premades avoid fighting premades, group ranked. proves it
7. Most players won't organise/group up regardless (this isn't 2009 see the youtube vid. Chapter 24 hardly being touched prove my point as well)
8. Events kills diversity by looping the same map 48h, boring and repetitive'
9. groups/guilds chain-Q and play "surrender" to quickly claim reward (a chore)

Opinions
1. So in short the worst possible gaming experience for the majority of your player base

Spoiler:

2. Removing surrender most likely will make it worse (hide and seek and afkville)

Question
1. Op:"now it is (surrender) just being over used." .... or is it the outcome of a very poor queue mechanic/implementation?

[Sulorie]

Once more, what is so special about the screenshot?
Both sides have similar win numbers but this isn't what you are referring to.
Rather short SC duration is because of surrender.
Low scores for losing team is an expected outcome, furthermore it would be worth noting if scores were similar.
You get similar scores if both teams avoid fighting and go for objective points, which isn't possible in all SC. You have good chances for similar scores, if e.g. one premade per side farms the opposing pug team, while they don't bother with each other.
It is more likely that one sides has an edge and from there you have a "snowball effect", which leads to one team being wiped out.
Then one side surrenders and winner gets 500 points.

There are "pvp" games out there, where single players can carry their whole team, because the game mechanics are less dependent on groups, e.g. shooters or you have the DotA type games, where long respawns in case of mistakes at late game can turn the entire game around.
I see no way for such recover mechanics in a game like ROR, when players on one side are just flat out worse. When players in one team don't pull their weight and do their job, they don't deserve to win and there is no middle ground.

[nocturnalguest]

There's also the other elephant in the room that has changed the way players, premades, and guilds all play this game, possibly more than any change I've ever seen in RoR before, and that's the killboard. I love the idea of having more info available to us, and particularly love the recording of SC stats and city stats - but making character and guild KDAs publically available has created an alt + f4, don't want to die in SCs, don't want to fight in the lakes meta like I've never seen before. I also think it's one of the biggest factors in the absolute state of RvR these days, with half of destros leaders now being on a feckin joint discord network to coordinate because everyone is so afraid of losing fights now because their guild stats are publically available and they're afraid of looking weak/bad more than they care about just having fun in the game. It has also given people a fantastic tool for harassment and bullying which was already rife on this server and has only gotten worse. And myself nor my guild are absolutely not immune to it either, the killboard has absolutely changed the way I play and care about my stats in this game in a way I never thought it would, to the point where I literally don't do any content solo anymore, I don't invite my alts to my guild until they're out of T1 where they're less inclined to rack up deaths, the list goes on, even though I know it makes absolutely no sense - it's just like logging in WoW was for me. And I know that this attitude is insanely pervasive in all of the high level guilds and groups in this game. I'd honestly bet my life on it being one of the main factors of the new attitude that has completely taken over this server

I do agree with general idea here. It does happen and very many are so obsessed with this stuff, its terrifying...

I was once behaving the same way. There was no Killboard around but Deathblow&Damaz Kron screenshots were shared instead. Both those addons were reseting themselves randomly thus leading to the fact that people were backuping data on a constant basis. I freed myself of the issue back then, however i must admit not without external factor (DB2 reset and lost back up) and you know what? I finally started to actually enjoy gameplay, it felt like the shackles have been finally broken. Im now able to actually play the game not giving a flying F about meaningless stats that are not showing whole story. It has a real (not scoreboard) performance increase as well, as you dont have to worry if you are top kills/dmg/prot/heal and thus sometimes behave selfish and reckless so you just focus to do your job well.

However thought, i cant agree with you in technical details. You put all the blame into killboard. That not true, the only thing it (maybe) changed is Guilds behavior, here i can agree to some extent but it also in some way increased activity (cause of the need to farm the numbers). People have been alt + f4'ing before killboard, leave&crush&afk at SC to avoid death before killboard, refuse to fight before killboard.

So all in all, Killboard is a nice feature i believe. Those who are manically obsessed with numbers and principles were the same before its introduction and will be same if its surprisingly gone. The only thing that can help in this regard are themselves.

Many do mention Killboard monitoring of winning streaks so i'd like to comment on this one as well (however i technically dont understand the issue, what do you do to magically find what&where to join then tables may turn any moment with some famous premade logging in?! i believe discord monitoring is way more effective to dodge and (or) join the winning). As far as i understand its way more efficient to just form a proper team and its actually good then there is an opposition. On sunday i choose to play with folks i know order side, we were on twinks (with 1-3-2 setup) and lost a few event SCs so we decided to relog to fix composition of the group and oppose destro premades. They all left after 1st lose, to the point that in 1 sacellum arena they didnt left spawn point (and then we didnt meet them in next 4-5 SCs) even once and we even weren't on mains (BiS&80+), we just somewhat fixed the group comp. This is real issue i believe. Monitoring Killboard is nowhere near something terrible, i just cant see how it may affect/ruin the game for an evening or two.

Almost everyone do not want sweaty fights and many do play just for the grind&numbers. Thats sad.

[Garamore]

There's also the other elephant in the room that has changed the way players, premades, and guilds all play this game, possibly more than any change I've ever seen in RoR before, and that's the killboard. I love the idea of having more info available to us, and particularly love the recording of SC stats and city stats - but making character and guild KDAs publically available has created an alt + f4, don't want to die in SCs, don't want to fight in the lakes meta like I've never seen before. I also think it's one of the biggest factors in the absolute state of RvR these days, with half of destros leaders now being on a feckin joint discord network to coordinate because everyone is so afraid of losing fights now because their guild stats are publically available and they're afraid of looking weak/bad more than they care about just having fun in the game. It has also given people a fantastic tool for harassment and bullying which was already rife on this server and has only gotten worse. And myself nor my guild are absolutely not immune to it either, the killboard has absolutely changed the way I play and care about my stats in this game in a way I never thought it would, to the point where I literally don't do any content solo anymore, I don't invite my alts to my guild until they're out of T1 where they're less inclined to rack up deaths, the list goes on, even though I know it makes absolutely no sense - it's just like logging in WoW was for me. And I know that this attitude is insanely pervasive in all of the high level guilds and groups in this game. I'd honestly bet my life on it being one of the main factors of the new attitude that has completely taken over this server

Totally agree with this - the behaviour change since killboard came out has made RvR much more dull. The defensive play, waiting in keeps, not engaging unless you are coming with 3-4wbs, not playing unless you are 24 rr70s+, all mean less fights, less action and stale RVR where zones aren't flipping as people enter RvR and definitely won't push into a keep door incase they die. Same with Ranked - if you hid the scoreboard people would play more.

That said last night, was probably the best night recently in RvR as there were guilds out that don't take this too seriously (Oath, CNTK, LNM etc) and didn't hide in keeps or co-ordinate massive zergs - just some free flowing, lots and kills and deaths action for a good 2hrs!

[normanis]

There is, it's called ranked. Which there has been no match since when??? Anyone?

that why ranked is dead, because ppl whant easy farm kills to polish feathers than sweat in ranked.

ranked is a better and fairer game mode over all, fact that ranked died just proved that ppl in this game not interested in "skill" or "competition" after all.

exatly