Weekend Scenario Events

[vastagor]

I think this recent event has highlighted a lot of things for us here. Like most systems, when one mechanism is pushed to an extreme, it can cause cracks to show in related places. One of them that stands out pre-eminently to me is the way the weekend Scenario events are handled. The extreme population imbalance made queuing for the scenario a near futile endeavor for Order. I will use both my personal experience, and a review of the scenario win / lose as examples, and put my proposals at the end after detailing my observations.

You can follow this link (https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... e=standard) to see the scenarios played. Last I counted the ratios, it was about 75% destruction wins. That is an extreme imbalance. To use other games as a reference, in DotA2, when a particular hero has over a 60% win-rate, it's considered overpowered. Obviously, this isn't a 1:1 translation, but that is a very strong sniff test failure.

I don't queue for anything other than discordant if I'm solo (which is almost always), except for the weekend Scenarios. I understand that I'm solo, and don't want to run against premades constantly. That's totally fine and okay, but the weekend scenario events force me into there if I want to get the weekly rewards. Typically, of feel, this means I have to run the weekend scenario about 10-15 times to get the 500 point wins, which is not an all-together bad ratio. My suspicion, is that the reason why there are 5 wins and 10 plays required each week is because there is an expectation of a 50% win rate.

This weekend blew that expectation out of the water. I easily ran over 20, and I suspect closer to 30 instances of the Serpent's Passage scenario this weekend. It was routinely being crushed by Destruction premades, causing order to almost always just lead to surrenders. Past experiences this happens a lot at the start of the weekend, and by the end of the weekend pop rates go down because Destruction isn't queuing for it anymore as premades, so it's easier to solo queue into it and get wins, but not this time.

This extreme population imbalance, caused by the big event, highlights an issue of expected number of played scenarios to finish the weekend event. Another "feels-bad" moment was around a Fortress battle occurring. I got into an instance of Serpent's Passage, and it closed down due to imbalance because the destruction side of the match did not join. The scenario ended with order early, and the side that showed up, got 125 points. It felt punitive given the framework of the event.

So, I believe there are a couple ways to improve this overall. I believe the most straightforward and best solution is to change it from "Win the scenario 5 times with 500 points" to "Earn 2500 points in the scenario over the weekend". The objection that I see about this solution is a perspective that players aren't "earning it" or that it somehow is unfair to guarantee progression. I feel neither are valid and is counter to the design philosophy we've seen everywhere else in the game. I can see some knock-on effects that are for the good though.

• Players would surrender less.
  • Much like the voting systems in the United States, it's winner-takes all, discouraging participation.

• More active player engagement in the scenario
  • Knowing that all points would lead towards the weekend scenario goal would push to compete

• Less need to change scenarios that close down prematurely due to imbalances
  • Players can run the objective while waiting for the other side to show up, and bank points

• More granular control for future changes.
  • If it feels like the balance of desired total matches played doesn't work, the points can be easily adjusted in whatever increments desired (i.e. 100, 250, 500,...)
  • Possibility for other rewards down the line like, "Use this item to give you a free 500 points towards your weekend scenario" (or whatever)

The other solution is multi-faceted requiring changes to a few other systems.

• Add a solo-only queue for the weekend scenario (similar to the discordant), or at least, add it to the list of discordant scenarios.

• Make wins that happen because of imbalances in scenarios give the side that showed up 500 points, like a surrender.

• Rework the matchmaking to more aggressively try to match solo-queuers against solo-queuers
  • I like this the least as it's probably a lot of work, and it would reduce frequency significantly

My friend you are doing this wrong. You need to be friends/in a guild with a GM/developer, make a Twitch channel and cry as much as you can about how something is not fair, or how it's not good for the game because you think so, and magic will happen.

[Avernus]

Really what these players need is a carrot, yet the devs only seem to know how to wield the stick.

During last holidays there were some discussion in chat involving certain person (as far as i recall, it was GM) and this guy said that in case you don't like sc you got into, you are supposed to fight or leave.

To me, it looked like "you must leave or stay and fight (read as "feed"). You are not supposed to deny the farm to this premades. And as the one who does participate in this premades sometimes, i can say - people like this are just a food, if they are going full "don't give up, we can do this!" the only thing they can achieve is to maximize our farm (and occasional BO victory, which only matters something if you are doing event) while being utterly slaughtered without any chance to do something.

Thus, while i do agree that staying at respawn at bad sc is not a good thing, i'm sure that this guys do this not because they like it and that GM's words feels a bit...wrong.

[Banjomissen]

So, I believe there are a couple ways to improve this overall. I believe the most straightforward and best solution is to change it from "Win the scenario 5 times with 500 points" to "Earn 2500 points in the scenario over the weekend".

You under the opinion try to make a beautiful logical design. According to your economic model, "Whoever earns more points is a good fellow." People will fight even less and do even more pve on stages. Even now it's annoying.

Even now, this is observed when half of the scene starts whining in the chat about "running around the points" and not fighting. Do not suggest scenes to make it worse.

Yeah why on earth would players do what they are supposed to do in a scenario and play the objective?

[calipso]

Aluviya nailed the state of Order in scenarios for the past months and specially since the event for the ring started. Destruction is stacking way too much premades in scenarios farming for the event but not balancing the realms, most of them play also Order. 8 out of 10 scenarios Order has to face double premade whereas Destruction is complete the opposite side of the coin, 2 or 3 out of 10 scs. Although it isn’t their fault, match system shouldn’t allowed the align of double premades in an scenario of 12, either 2vs2 premades or 1 premade plus pugs for both realms to have fair fights and not that superior disadvantage. Also i fully recommend to just leave the sc if it is so unfair, but stop feeding the other realm. Take a break until the quitter is gone and try again

[Dajciekrwi]

Its really to late for "make a premade" concept.
RoR is very hermetic, completly focused on closed societys of ppl, who playing together for long time and will no let any new blood between them.
One day i proposed to change focus from large scale to some smaller activity.
One of users on forum answer :"this game is for wb and if it die- its die".

[Aluviya]

Aluviya nailed the state of Order in scenarios for the past months and specially since the event for the ring started. Destruction is stacking way too much premades in scenarios farming for the event but not balancing the realms, most of them play also Order. 8 out of 10 scenarios Order has to face double premade whereas Destruction is complete the opposite side of the coin, 2 or 3 out of 10 scs. Although it isn’t their fault, match system shouldn’t allowed the align of double premades in an scenario of 12, either 2vs2 premades or 1 premade plus pugs for both realms to have fair fights and not that superior disadvantage. Also i fully recommend to just leave the sc if it is so unfair, but stop feeding the other realm. Take a break until the quitter is gone and try again

Thanks a lot. I additionally want to say. With introducing events that seem to make it obligatory to take part in to stay BiS, I do feel like we all sign up on PUG' being farmed over and over - for a lot of premades it would not work in any other way. In the recent 3 days I've had like 1 fair match in hundreds of SC's, everything else was just slaughtering PUGs on both sides most likely pushing them into a WC. I think regardless wheter you have a group you can play with or do not have it, events should be there to enjoy it, to have FUN mostover anything else. Most of the players who are usually PUGging (which does not imply that they are bad at all, some of them just have noone to play with anymore in this game due to their team being inactive) just endure events just to get BiS rewards (and some of them just rarely log back after events due to various reasons such as frustration over the game and burnout with the matchmaking system). I strongly believe an event should there to attract back people and show them that things have changed, set incentives for new and returning players to play this game. And scenario and the given balance play a big role in this game wheter one want to see it or not.

Really what these players need is a carrot, yet the devs only seem to know how to wield the stick.

During last holidays there were some discussion in chat involving certain person (as far as i recall, it was GM) and this guy said that in case you don't like sc you got into, you are supposed to fight or leave.

To me, it looked like "you must leave or stay and fight (read as "feed"). You are not supposed to deny the farm to this premades. And as the one who does participate in this premades sometimes, i can say - people like this are just a food, if they are going full "don't give up, we can do this!" the only thing they can achieve is to maximize our farm (and occasional BO victory, which only matters something if you are doing event) while being utterly slaughtered without any chance to do something.

Thus, while i do agree that staying at respawn at bad sc is not a good thing, i'm sure that this guys do this not because they like it and that GM's words feels a bit...wrong.

Meanwhile people like me, who are actually trying to swim against the tides, building a group on order while there are at least 3 premades on destru are also additionally punished with 24h quitter, with the claim that I'd be ruining the game for others if I do not leave a the WC in 2 out of 50 games where the matchking system has created an environment 1 order premade + PUGs vs 3 destru premades. I consistently see in every scenario people that are not leaving the scenario WC and in 99% of the cases it has nothing to do with them being cowards or not wanting to play. Its simply because they face again the same premades that have been farming them in prior scs. Also want to remind here, there are no set rules for scenarios. This feels to me just like an unfair generalisation to then imply that I was actually maliciously trying to ruin the game for others.

[Rapzel]

Yeah why on earth would players do what they are supposed to do in a scenario and play the objective?

Why do we have different archetypes if the game is based around running between objectives? If the important part is to control the objectives, why doesn't everyone just reroll into healer and snb tanks?

[nocturnalguest]

I dunno. Changing it from wins to points earned seems like a very good idea to me. Altho i'd raise the cap from 2500 as suggested to something like 5000 at least.
Premade vs PUG discussion is getting too old actually.
With SS SC the only issue i see is that it caters to RDPS 1-3-2 groups way too much. However most map designs are dogsh*t since AoR so not much to do here. But picking SS for warfront and event was definitely a very bad idea
Also there is another really crucial thing - SC is fastest and best way of farm in regards to RR/crests per time spent in case you winning in premade. There is really no motivation to play objectives and in reality you need to avoid doing them by all cost. The only real focus is to farm the opposition as much as possible, that would lead for best RR/Crests no matter if win by points or not. But what is not covered is the rare case of double premade vs double premade where both sides gain nothing cause no farm happens, so they end up with 2-3k rr and no crests per 15 minutes of full sweat. So even if there would be somewhat cool MM then premades would be dismotivated too much.
tl;dr both sc&orvr systems need a complete very long overdue overhaul. they are insanely bad designed, not fun and way too flawed for both puggers/soloers and premades

[Avernus]

Meanwhile people like me, who are actually trying to swim against the tides, building a group on order while there are at least 3 premades on destru are also additionally punished with 24h quitter, with the claim that I'd be ruining the game for others if I do not leave a the WC in 2 out of 50 games where the matchking system has created an environment 1 order premade + PUGs vs 3 destru premades. I consistently see in every scenario people that are not leaving the scenario WC and in 99% of the cases it has nothing to do with them being cowards or not wanting to play. Its simply because they face again the same premades that have been farming them in prior scs. Also want to remind here, there are no set rules for scenarios. This feels to me just like an unfair generalisation to then imply that I was actually maliciously trying to ruin the game for others.

Yes, its 100% true. Winning side can be different because of the premades that are farming atm, but overall its stompfest anyway.
Btw, I did have a 24h quitter too a month ago or something. Same reasons.

[Phantasm]

Meanwhile people like me, who are actually trying to swim against the tides, building a group on order while there are at least 3 premades on destru are also additionally punished with 24h quitter, with the claim that I'd be ruining the game for others if I do not leave a the WC in 2 out of 50 games where the matchking system has created an environment 1 order premade + PUGs vs 3 destru premades. I consistently see in every scenario people that are not leaving the scenario WC and in 99% of the cases it has nothing to do with them being cowards or not wanting to play. Its simply because they face again the same premades that have been farming them in prior scs. Also want to remind here, there are no set rules for scenarios. This feels to me just like an unfair generalisation to then imply that I was actually maliciously trying to ruin the game for others.

Yes, its 100% true. Winning side can be different because of the premades that are farming atm, but overall its stompfest anyway.
Btw, I did have a 24h quitter too a month ago or something. Same reasons.

Stompfests occur because people are afraid to die in a pvp game and being exposed with PUBLIC killboard and labeled as a bad player and bad asset for a guild, group, warband etc. Remove deaths from killboard and you will change victim mentality spread among players.

Few months ago i suggested to Dalen to tweak out how scenario system is working to:

• Have at least 1 heal and 1 tank in party

• auto sort out groups 1-3 to more balanced groups (similar to how autoband /ab sort do, exluding party 4-6 so premades wont be messed up

• dont start scenario before /sort is done and at least 1 heal 1 tank is in each group

• addon similar to ranked leadership board to show which archetypes are low in queue so people can swap for better chance to get a scenario pop.

Ill just wait lil more time after abilities rework is done and maybe we will see some improvements.