Is reward model driving current population inbalance

[Evilspinnre]

I think we are getting lots of comments from people who play at different times.

EU primetime - equal numbers if not more order but you cant find them in the lakes as they are sitting waiting for a siege

Every other hour of the day - PvDoor train from order taking empty keeps.

In EU prime time dropping the rr and crest gain from scens and increasing it in the lakes and getting rid of bag rolls on keeps would mean more order may look to actually fight.

At other times there doesnt appear to be a way of stopping the Order PvDoor train as its been in full flow since scheduled cities came in.

Unfortunately during EU primetime I've seen some destro guilds/alliances running around with 36+ all the same discord, giving order warbands no choice but to sit in keep or blob up. I think this mentality does far more to damage RvR than anything else.

Funny that you are mentioning that Evil. It was your 2wb+ blob that was literally destroying pvp for hundreds of players this sunday prime in praag. For hours.

People couldn't even leave the warcamp. You were non stop roaming near the order warcamp, killing everything that tried to go out with a very abusive tactic. Push, kill, fall back, let people come out, mSH m2 snare, rush in, mara aoe knock down, gtdc spam, burst everyone down in seconds, leave a few minutes and do it again.

It's one thing when premades are strong, but what your premade and buddies were doing was on another level. It is abusive to the maximum and game breaking. Hundreds of people had to suffer from that game play. You and your buddies destroyed the pvp evening of a ton of players. That had nothing to do with just playing premade and having fun. That was abusive to the maximum.

It's at the point were devs have to step in and nerf the power of premade warbands. What these premades are doing is basically "bombing" people with melee aoe. "Bombing" and "Pulling" people into that was nerfed long ago for exactly that reason. Yet for melee blobs they don't mind. For years now. At the same time nerfing every counter play, like rdps aoe into the ground.

Melee aoe bombing, pulling and premade survivability in general need a hard nerf. I don't see that happening with the proposed ability overhaul. There are some fixes to pulls and melee aoe but not to premade survivability. Without nerfing survivability they will keep doing the same with classes like bombing/infernal wave sorcs and mSHs. What is order going to be using after the melee aoe nerf? BWs without infernal wave? Engis without magical damage? Sws without mSH beast mode? WLs without aoe kd? Slayers without chop fasta and pulls? Lol. Well played destro, well played.

Odd, the first hour of the night we managed to get fights with VII, Retri, and Bene, alone. After that they started to stick close together, we got zergerd down by all 3 with another pug order wb so we didn't overextend without NGE's 12 man or the pug destro wb to support. Did you know others warbands on both sides can also "bomb" and aoe?

[lumpi33]

No matter the change, you are still left with the root issue. The player base. We will do almost anything.

That's not a player base issue at all. Even if you do form 2/2/2 warbands you will not have the slightest chance against optimized melee bombing premades.

On sunday prime there were several order premades running, they just couldn't take down the destro premade blob. They tried hard.

These premades are in discord together and coordinate attacks and roaming and telling where a fight is happening. Even if you can kill one of the premades with a big blob, there will be two other wbs joining the fight and rolling over you in no time. That's how they play these days.

That's not a player base issue. That's just abusing everything to the maximum to don't die at all and farm people until they log off.

[lumpi33]

Did you know others warbands on both sides can also "bomb" and aoe?

I sure do, but there is no gtdc, mara aoe kd and covenant of celerity snare on order side. Destro premades can abuse the bombing meta a lot better than order. Especially vs pugs. There is no escaping. From rampage slayers and pouncing WLs you can at least run away. There are also not these warcamp stairs in praag for destro, making it easier to push out or damage attackers. That pull abusing near the stairs is an exclusive destro thing.

But yeah beside that you are right and as we all know, you are doing it on order side as well. It's not just a destro thing. Doesn't chance anything about the rest I wrote.

Don't alwas think about premade warband vs premade warband. Think about all the pugs and new players. You are destroying their fun making it unplayable for them. Having the ability to gather the best players around you and being a good lead, doesn't give you the right to do that.

[CyunUnderis]

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Melee aoe bombing, pulling and premade survivability in general need a hard nerf. I don't see that happening with the proposed ability overhaul. There are some fixes to pulls and melee aoe but not to premade survivability. Without nerfing survivability they will keep doing the same with classes ...

What it is "Premade Survivability" ? A new skill or a passive that I don't know ?

Historically, several of the skills/passives that allowed premades to survive and hold WBs in fights have been nerfed or removed (e.g. Resolute Defense, Cleansing Wind, Morale Pump, AoE number of targets, AoE debuff heal/armor, Morale Damage Cap ...).

Also, items like Odjira have never been introduced (although it is possible to have equivalent procs).

Moreover, other tools have been introduced (GTDC for example) or revised (Rampage for example), making larger-scale fights more difficult (the slightest misplacement can be fatal) for smaller premades.

Overall, premades (regardless of size) are less resilient than they once were. Unfortunately, few players question themselves and try to organize themselves to compete with these unkillable premades.

Spoiler:

A little wink to the Bene Tleilax's WB who was chasing a 6-men in Praag, only to end up not catching them and who lost 2 people in the operation

Regarding the subject of this thread, I agree with Bombling regarding the return of an objective to the campaign.

From memory, when the scheduled cities were introduced, there was a discussion in the RvR group where these should only be triggered after a week, depending on the number of Realm points or X hours after 2 fortresses lost, just to give some time to the players to organize themselves (and avoid having practically empty cities during early EU time or late NA time, without confrontation).

Also, rewarding players who play the underpopulated faction in a way other than through the AAO (useful for groups of players with the kill ability but less so for those without the kill ability) might be an idea. For example, by holding the BO for a more or less long duration, with a ticket every X times.

Moreover, the x-realm lockout should be removed (or only put in place when opening a fortress). Indeed, some premades could change during the evening to help organize the undernumbered faction. Unfortunately, this is not possible because 1h30 of blocking very often corresponds to a good part of the evening of the organized WBs.

[Bignusty]

I think removing bags from keeps is marvelous idea. I'd follow it by buffing weekly RvR rewards, while reaching each tier would be harder. Should result in more bloodbath and less keep play.

I'd also add kills to RvR weekly.

Removing bag and keep defense tic will maybe push order to give more purpose than staying wc waiting attack and sitting inside keep waiting attack? What a boring style to play xD !

But if i remember long time ago this system existed but was changed by current rvr system.

[lumpi33]

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Sorry but it is pretty irrelevant what you are saying about what was and how they nerfed it.

Fact is that these farming premades barely ever die, killing hundreds of people. That's a fact and you can see it every day. Let the enemy kill counter run and check.

Arguing that premade warband survivability is not superior is ridiculous. 8 healers watching, 8 tanks guarding, 16 dps... done right it is godmode. Even more when running with 2wbs.

[Elvicof]

Odd, the first hour of the night we managed to get fights with VII, Retri, and Bene, alone. After that they started to stick close together, we got zergerd down by all 3 with another pug order wb so we didn't overextend without NGE's 12 man or the pug destro wb to support. Did you know others warbands on both sides can also "bomb" and aoe?

Odd we found you alone once in start of Praag and late. Anytime in between you werent alone. Funny how different side can see the same situation so differently.

But one thing we do agree on is crying about one side do not wanna fight when stacking 30-40 man together. That is a good one

[CyunUnderis]

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Sorry but it is pretty irrelevant what you are saying about what was and how they nerfed it.

Fact is that these farming premades barely ever die, killing hundreds of people. That's a fact and you can see it every day. Let the enemy kill counter run and check.

Saying that it ain't so is ridiculous.

I just pointed that they are more killable right now that they were.

Also, if this players play better then the majority of the server, what can you do about it ? They are using the same skills as you (like Evil said, they do the same both side), using the best tools from each faction. So, how can you nerf it ? Do you want an auto-win button ?

It always comes back to the same thing: the majority of players refuse to try to progress, discover other ways to play and prefer to complain on the forum.

Last post for me, because we are quite off topic.

[lumpi33]

Also, if this players play better then the majority of the server, what can you do about it ? So, how can you nerf it ?

There are several options
- One would be to reduce the warband size to 12 players or even remove the warbands at all. Only 6 man groups. Then you would have less healers watching and the survivability would decrease.
- Another one would be by nerfing synergies / heals / absorbs. The group heals, shields and guard is making the groups and warbands so powerful. Nerfing it down would help others to kill them.
- Another one would be to add more counter play again. It was once the stacking rdps aoe with 100% moral boost. Both got removed.

It comes down to either decrease their survivability by nerfing synergies/heals/absorbs/morals/group size, or by increasing the damage of ranged dps to the point where many of them will be able to kill a blobbed up warband.

The game would be more fun if warbands had less of an impact. Especially with that decreasing population. It shouldn't be possible that 2 premade wbs are able to hold 150+ people in the warcamp, killing them over and over again without dying, like it happened this sunday prime. That's not "WAR is everywhere", that's "I managed to gather good players around me and take you out of the game".

[Evilspinnre]

Did you know others warbands on both sides can also "bomb" and aoe?

I sure do, but there is no gtdc, mara aoe kd and covenant of celerity snare on order side. Destro premades can abuse the bombing meta a lot better than order. Especially vs pugs. There is no escaping. From rampage slayers and pouncing WLs you can at least run away. There are also not these warcamp stairs in praag for destro, making it easier to push out or damage attackers. That pull abusing near the stairs is an exclusive destro thing.

But yeah beside that you are right and as we all know, you are doing it on order side as well. It's not just a destro thing. Doesn't chance anything about the rest I wrote.

Don't alwas think about premade warband vs premade warband. Think about all the pugs and new players. You are destroying their fun making it unplayable for them. Having the ability to gather the best players around you and being a good lead, doesn't give you the right to do that.

Did you know we do the same thing on order? It's not a balance issue like you're making it out to be. Maybe instead of crying in chat and forums coordinate with other warbands? When we got flanked at warcamp our wb exploded. Also, might shock you to know that there are multiple ways to leave the WC that would result in the other side splitting up.