"Pattrik's Essay on Class Balance"

[Farrul]

It does indeed last for 5 seconds, but it's spammable. Now, stacking it with Wall of Darting Steel is not easy, yes. But it remains possible.

After all, as I said, all tanks need a buff (I was harsher on the SM, but he deserves a buff too).

Eagle's flight (25% parry) does not stack with wall of darting steel.

As for SM vs BO comparison just keep in mind the population balance as well, there is 3-4 black orcs for every swordmaster on this server. I agree that BO deserves to be buffed and need some sort of group utility added but SM is squishy for a tank and that's the price for having better utility and more versatile damage channel / spirit). The best tank classes remain Chosen/Kotbs for their respective faction.

Yes, it has the double armor debuff, indeed. But apart from the Bring 'Em On + Keep it Goin'! build to spam Da Big Un', it doesn't have more impact than other offtanks. Yes, it spams AoE, so it deals damage. It takes two tactics to use a spell, though. Not great.

2H BO singletarget crits and burst can't be matched by any other tank class( including SM) vs squishy targets.

6. GtdC pull is a slot machine of either being useful and pulling heals/dps or handing out immunity to tanks that got pulled 10 feet. There are definitely issues with how it behaves in keeps that cannot be denied. I'd advocate for Rampage and GtdC to be completely disabled around keeps as they both completely ruin funnels."

Okay, so there's a slight "Destro bias," but in the end, you clearly agree with me?

Okay, why not!

The strength of Rampage is precisely in funnels and GTDC excels in the open rvr lakes, disable rampage and GTDC in funnels would be a huge destro buff and big order nerf, not balanced at all.

Having said that, the main issue with slayer vs choppa is clear. Both classes have too much power relative to the other dps classes in their respective faction and deserve to be adequately nerfed for a long time. This is long overdue and the ''meta'' need to change to not revolve around these two ''berserker'' classes when we discuss faction balance.

GTDC is an abomination and a pug nightmare, makes the game unfun for Order. There is a reason why Choppa is the most played dps class in the game by far( this is an issue since the game for many hours of the day do not have organized gameplay and pugs IS the game, except for prime times etc). It is an abusive and still broken ability ( it screws the camera of the victim, seem to sometimes ignore parry defences and is still bugged pulling people through walls and stairs).

Rampage is ridiculous since it can trivialize tank defences, it need an adequate nerf as well. Instead in the manifesto for some weird unknown reason the devs have decided to gut marauders and white lions aoe build and leave these two overperfoming classes . I hope that is only temporarily until ''real'' class changes.

[Xameleon]

Biggest destro bias post I have ever seen. Many things are correct, such as BO being complete joke, SM being better than other ORDER tank, rampage being oppressive, but some others... shows complete lack of understanding of different things.

It seems like OP only plays BO. Natural predator of such class is slayer, so i guess "Nerf the scissors, rock is fine" - Paper, probably.

[Avernus]

1. Biggest destro bias post I have ever seen. Many things are correct, such as BO being complete joke, SM being better than other ORDER tank, rampage being oppressive, but some others... shows complete lack of understanding of different things.

2. It seems like OP only plays BO. Natural predator of such class is slayer, so i guess "Nerf the scissors, rock is fine" - Paper, probably.

1. SM being better than other order tanks is a joke too. SM is viable, but it can't be the best until he gets a decent 2h knockback, snb version is kinda crappy and reduces you to WW bot. Its true that BO isn't great as tank though, since the only thing he is good at is punching squishies.

2. Funny thing that tanks are not the best targets to mdps, since they can have a lot of defencive stuff, and if its defregen it's usually not worth it - unless you can ignore all defensive mechanics with 1 button. And, just in case of some fool yelling "shatter it", slayer has a few buffs just to cover rampage, which means that best case scenario, assuming you are trying to shatter it, you can succed at your 3 try. Good luck to survive that one.

P.S. Since BO lacks good st knockback to try and punt the slayer away during his rampage - he is indeed has almost no chances, unless there is some significant gear/skill gap.

P.P.S. I've played both sides - and both sides have some disgusting abilities. Some of them are old (still not fixed). Yeah, Rampage. Some are new (GTDC cancer). I'm still facepalming each time i see WE/WH "totally balanced" charge+stealth - i have no idea why this thing exists (i guess somebody just really likes his stealth character...).

[Amakusa]

Sad that you dont talk about Morale Pump ;P

Destru:
Chosen (self)
Black Orc (self)
Zealot (self)
Shaman (grp)
Squig Herder (self)
Sorc (self)
Witche Elf (grp)

Order:
White Lion (grp)
Arch Mage (grp)
Witch Hunter (grp)
Bright Wizard (self)

Just Mirror all Classes and everybody is fine then or?
There are a lot of good/bad things on both sides but only ppl playing both factions will get that.

[Sulorie]

Largely disagree that rampage is a problem and Drop Da Basher is indeed better since it works for all players and can't be countered and yes im well aware slayers have the same ability...it should be toned down on the slayers end imo but for Choppa it is essential to keep it how it is.

"Drop Da Basha is indeed better since it works for all players and can't be countered.

You need to READ what people are saying before you WRITE, my friend. Rampage is last on the priority list; it's almost impossible to remove it in a fight. And why wouldn't Rampage work on all players? What you're saying doesn't make sense.

You are biased or just missed his/her point. You debuff enemy block/parry of your own team to connect hits more reliable. Rampage only helps the individual slayer player, not all other melees like tanks and non-slayer assist DD.

Rampage itself isn't the problem, because not many non-tank classes stack parry or avoidance in general. Rampage becomes broken, when tanks can't avoid guard damage. This is what makes tanks melt along their guard target.
Let tanks avoid guard damage caused by slayer attacks with rampage buff and it will be fine.

[IVendettaI]

I think somebody lost one too many times to a Swordmaster and is cranky about it.

Good to know we are "the best tank in the game", though. Maybe somebody should tell warband leaders that because when they are not desperate they are filling out the slots with 4 Knights and 4 "other" tanks with some preference for IB or SM depending on if they need good single buff or group CD buff (and bugger off if you don't slot that).

Similarly interesting that BG is strongest destro tank. Guess someone should tell their warband leaders to stack them instead of 4 Chosen plus whatever else ...

Anyway, everything outside of the inevitable rampage discussion (and maybe the BO could use a little love ... maybe) was just a typical Destro diary entry about victimhood just like Order complains about pulls all ... the ... time.

Well, of course, the conclusion when someone makes a topic about what they consider to be issues of factual inequalities between classes is that they've lost against them. Naturally, there are no other explanations. (No, I've never been farmed by a SwordMaster, so you can keep your assumptions to yourself.)

And apart from displaying your condescending attitude to everyone, your message hasn't served much purpose.

Anything else?

[Helwer]

I think we would still have balance discussions when every mirror was 101% the same. Cause the devs play order.

[Scottx125]

You need to say the full names of spells if you want me to understand, i'm not english (I think it's visible)

I haven't mentioned any spells... WP = Warrior Priest, Salv = Salvation tree, Spec = If you're running Salv, Grace or Wrath specialisation trees. Everything else is commonly used within the game, discord and forums which you should be familiar with.

Yes, alright, the judgment wasn't necessary. I didn't understand, I'm not English. I'm already making an effort to express myself in your language. You want me to express myself in French and be 100% comfortable with my explanations while you rely on translation?
Je le fais maintenant si tu veux et ça ne va pas être drôle pour toi

Now, you believe it's a mistake to compare 1:1, fair enough. But don't we need to start by comparing counterparts to each other before confronting them with the rest? Because saying:

"WP Salv is great in most content, not ideal in kiting fights but it works."

Not ideal for kiting, but compared to what? In my opinion, the DoK/WP compensates with its medium armor, which other healers don't have.

"Grace, a bad choice for ORVR. It works okay in small scale, cities, and PVE, but that's it. It's a high-risk, low-reward spec as it does low damage and okay healing (salv is better). It's also a shame you can't hybridize this spec properly between casted healing and melee damage."

I have a DoK shield, and I don't find it bad in ORVR. But I think it's much more a matter of personal preference than a consensus.

"Finally Wrath. Useless in pretty much all forms of content. Does poor healing, does mediocre damage, doesn't bring anything useful to groups/WBs that other classes in their primary spec can already do better."

Not well-informed on this one, but yes, I'm aware it's not as good as DoK DPS. However, there are very few DoK DPS players because it clearly doesn't appeal to everyone either.

Was trying to help you but whatever..

1. Compared to other healers, WPs are tankier sure but the whole point of kiting is to not get physically engaged. WP can only cast HoTs on the move which is a problem in med-high pressure kiting situations, and stopping to heal might get you caught and killed. RP for example is a perfect kiting healer same with AM. And whilst AM can't cast some of it's spells on the move it can drop puddle to allow them to retreat.

2. On order Grace is not a good choice in ORVR. Why? Because to survive in ORVR you need to build defensively, consequently you also need STR to do enough damage to heal decently. And if you're out of range the only decent heal you have is Sacrifice. The whole point of Grace in the meta is combining a bit of ST damage pressure with healing. So therefore the only way you're gonna be doing decent healing as a defensive Grace WP is if you hunt down squigs in the middle of the ORVR blob fest (not practical or reliable). And in sieges.. You're mostly useless. The healing/damage is decent as a full STR build but then you're super squishy in ORVR. So it's not viable.

3. Dual wield would make it better, especially with the auto attack tactic. But it still lacks something. It either needs to be an offensive support actually debuffing enemies. Or have it be more of the DPS focused healer being super squishy but also hitting hard and doing good heals (high risk high reward). Right now it's in a weird state where it seems the devs don't even know what they want to do with it.

[JohnnyWayne]

To extend my previous post, your knowledge about heal balance just confirms my suspicion about you playing destro and only one role. You even pointed it out yourself and you should be able to see the filter bubble you live in. You see your class and your issues but dont understand that this is a complex system with a lot of balance valves you can try to adjust with different outcomes. You have no clue about the actual healer balance and it shows. Order is ahead on most heals except for AM/Schaman for various reasons.

Overall, from all archetypes, well played tanks have the most impact on a battle. They are the strongest, not the weakest archetype in the game. They increase the effect of defensives stacking exponentially.

While I agree that BO need a rework and certainly a helping hand, rampage is not the culprit you make it out to be. Rampage is compared to GTDC because they are inherently different but serve the same purpose in funnel situations. Rampage breaks the damage immunity of destro tanks in funnels, especially when guarding a dps. GTDC pulls out tanks so that a sufficiently strong blob can damage them down to stop them from using M4s during a push. It is the same effect just at different points in time. Mostly destro is just too dense to understand how powerful of a tool GTDC really is because the are playing their characters as one dimensional as order characters are designed.
Contrary to GTDC rampage is useful in non zerg fights like in Sc's and thats where I'd say the imbalance shows most in the statistics (with slayers having the highest average kd paired with certain russian groups sync queueing on order). In open RVR on the other hand, GTDC is superior, the ability to soften up frontlines and pull people into a aoe melee blob is extremely strong. Your claim that you "randomly" pull people is also not true, a skilled player will position himself in a way that he can target for certain people to be pulled. In a zerg situation you can take on anyone anyway so why do you care who you pull. A pull in a zerg is a death sentence against a skilled enemy.

I still say, remove both and mirror classes more closly. Now lets disect some of your statements.

Order players complain about "grab abuse." But if you're getting "grab abuse," I'm sorry to say it like this, but you're just not good players. When you see Choppas in GTDC and you stand at the edge of the Praag fort like novices, it's not "grab abuse"; you're just novices, to put it plainly. You need to reevaluate yourselves.

I can return that statement directly to you. Play order. See how it is. You have no clue. Destro life is so much easier in that regard and all these pulls create a toxic gameplay experience for order.

GTDC is generally used to attract fleeing players who had already lost the battle. Grabs don't happen in the middle of fights.

Another "you have no clue" point. I have explained how to use it properly before.

Just the Slayer alone explains the 80% win rate of Order when you consider that Choppa and Slayer are the two most played DPS.

You pulled the statistics for that win rate out of your arse. Simply not true.

30 seconds when most fights in RvR last a maximum of 10 seconds... Isn't that excessive? Especially considering that it's a buff, so if the Slayer gets stunned, he keeps Rampage, right?

In that case, rampage is no issue. See how you have no idea how to set up an actual rampage burst? You have to get to yellow rage, then drop it with rampage, then get to yellow again, set up dots in the meantime and then you can start bursting. That alone are around 20+ seconds of preparation. More than that - to get damage out you usually can't wait until you are in red to maximize damage output. So slayers will use retribution + rampage in yellow, where as choppas will use bring it on in full red. That is a 25% dmg difference and outside of funnels, with proper positioning and targeting, will have a greater effect. ID on the other hand is something choppas lack and I'd argue they need it to balance the classes.

Some want to defend the Black Ork by saying that he can achieve 100% "mitigation" (with everything I've said about BO above) and that he's the only tank that can do it.

A lot if not all destro tanks can do that. That IS the reason for rampage to exist and where its needed to break funnels or pushes apart. Remove that from the game by forcing a hard cap and you can start balancing choppas and slayers.

[IVendettaI]

I don't even need to read through all of this wall of text (but I will) to see, that you play destro and no order. Your evaluation of classes is highly biased and I recommend to play the other faction aswell before you put out such posts.

Rampage is what it is because destro tanks in funnels can channel push their defensives into immortal levels. I hate that it is the core attribute of slayers and other melee classes fall off because of it. Rage dancing on the other hand, is an aspect of the class that i miss on my Choppa. Makes Choppa kinda dull in comparison. GTDC makes the game extremely toxic for order and changes evertyhing about funnels and open fields but is extremely useless in scs.

Personally I'd cap all defensive stats at 75% and remove rampage. Get choppas ID instead of GTDC (that skill has to go), move chop fasta to BO and mirror ww. Remove the exhaust on the ap reg skill and find something new for chop fasters slot. Slayer would get an no exhaust ap regen skill where rampage was.

For your Chosen / KTOBS evaluation - before you emphasize the spirit damage component on SW / BO and completely ignore it in this comparison. You also ignore that the 10% crit buff of 2h is something BG has aswell, but as a larger aoe effect and takes no tactic slot.

Your evaluation of IB vs BG is pretty skewed. The BG is better in 80% of all aspects and only sacrfices buffing allies and AP generation. BG gets an additional interrupt + AP drain instead. BG gets an actual AoE dmg skill, it's protection mechanic is nothing you have to specc into, it's ST burst support is not a 15 but 6 points skill, it's class mechanic automatically regenerates on hit (you gotta use a tactic for that on IB, imagine that...). SnB BG gets a shield channel - something only 2H SW has on order as far as i know, but in parry. The class mechanic skills the classes provides are completely different and mostly focused on offensive instad of buffing an ally. The difference in punt range was also not adressed at all.

Due to the nature of this asymmetric balance, it is extremely hard to keep an overview of the actual state. As long as you stay one sided in your evaluations and dont know the classes its hard to make point on balance evaluations.

"I don't even need to read through all of this wall of text (but I will) to see, that you play destro and no order. Your evaluation of classes is highly biased and I recommend to play the other faction as well before you put out such posts.

Well, first of all, to start with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD7BcmAOqfs

The bias of cross-realmers (and potentially x-realmers) who think that one cannot legitimately talk about balance when not playing in the other faction makes me want to vomit. You're not recommending anything; you're passing judgment.

"Rampage is what it is because destro tanks in funnels can channel push their defensives into immortal levels. I hate that it is the core attribute of slayers, and other melee classes fall off because of it. Rage dancing, on the other hand, is an aspect of the class that I miss on my Choppa. It makes Choppa kind of dull in comparison. GTDC makes the game extremely toxic for order and changes everything about funnels and open fields but is extremely useless in scs."

Immortal levels??????????? No, you're just talking nonsense. By the way, Rampage is not meant to destroy the basic funnels (except potentially for a bus of Slayers, which is not supposed to be NORMAL). Order can funnel just as well as Destruction, and if that's not the case, I want concrete examples, not just an assertion straight out of thin air. It would be more sincere than your cross-realm hypocrisy.

"Personally, I'd cap all defensive stats at 75% and remove rampage. Get Choppa's ID instead of GTDC (that skill has to go), move Chop Fasta to BO, and mirror WW. Remove the exhaust on the AP regen skill and find something new for Chop Fasta's slot. Slayer would get a no-exhaust AP regen skill where rampage was."

Your idea is not too bad; I don't agree 100%, but it has the merit of being constructive, especially after what you said just before. It's appreciated.

"For your Chosen / KTOBS evaluation - before you emphasize the spirit damage component on SW / BO and completely ignore it in this comparison. You also ignore that the 10% crit buff of 2H is something BG has as well but as a larger AoE effect and takes no tactic slot."

Okay? I didn't understand where you were going with this, but okay.

"Your evaluation of IB vs. BG is pretty skewed. The BG is better in 80% of all aspects and only sacrifices buffing allies and AP generation. BG gets an additional interrupt + AP drain instead. BG gets an actual AoE dmg skill; its protection mechanic is nothing you have to spec into, its ST burst support is not a 15 but a 6-point skill; its class mechanic automatically regenerates on hit (you have to use a tactic for that on IB, imagine that...). SnB BG gets a shield channel - something only 2H SW has on Order, as far as I know, but in parry. The class mechanic skills the classes provide are completely different and mostly focused on offense instead of buffing an ally. The difference in punt range was also not addressed at all."

Grudge and Hatred are the same; you generate them naturally when you get hit, and when your defensive target gets hit too. So no, IB doesn't really need a tactic; it's a lie. Moreover, know that the BG's similar tactic is not as good. Yep, 10 Hatred when you get crit is worse than 30 Grudge when you parry (it's debatable, but it's my point of view).

None Shall Pass, yes, but it has a 30-second cooldown. IB can already have 100% block, and it can boost 25% parry for itself and its Oath Friend. Personally, I prefer something constant.

"Due to the nature of this asymmetric balance, it is extremely hard to keep an overview of the actual state. As long as you stay one-sided in your evaluations and don't know the classes, it's hard to make points on balance evaluations."

I believe that the most closed-minded people are those who claim to play in both factions. They are "one-sided," they don't want the game to change, even though they know (just like you) that there are balance issues. Don't give me any advice, especially not good ones. Having the inside scoop is not playing in both factions, my friend, and it's not a valid argument. On the contrary!"