Warrior Priest/DoK healing inequalities.

[Faldrino]

So, I've come to notice a few things throughout my time playing this game, there's the standard imbalances (we all know what I mean, I won't mention it so it doesn't de-rail), but there's one thing that I've noticed above all else and no one ever seems to mention it - Order healing.

It looks like, looking at the different buffs & Tactics that each realm has, that Order have flat out superior healing, in the form of Warrior Priest Tactics and buffs to KotBS Auras that are a must-have in every warband as I see every warband packing at least 1 KotBS and 1 Warrior Priest. This is due to the increase in outgoing healing that the mirror class (DoK) does not have.

As a DoK, you do not get any healing bonus. Whereas the WP gets "Exalted Defences" at level 33 , this is baseline and does not need to be chosen from a Mastery Tree and what "Exalted Defences" does is, as per the Career Builder explanation is the following;

"Any time you defend against an attack, your Casted Healing abilities will become 20% more effective"

I see this as a massive balance issue, as it can be used in conjunction with "Shield of Faith" which provides a flat 10% Disrupt, and the massive amount of disrupt provided through the stats in the gear, which, as far as I am aware, if a WP is being hit/focused, it can almost always have this up.

The reason I believe that this is a massive, massive balancing issue, is that it allows for greater distribution of their stats into defensives (Toughness, Wounds etc), as they have the extra healing and do not need to budget their Talismans into Willpower, meaning they are generally harder to kill.

For comparison, at level 33, a DoK gets "Potent Covenants", which, as per the Career Builder explanation, is the following;

"Increases the chance for your covenants to trigger by additional 15%"

Before people start saying that DoKs get a permanent 20% slow, this is nowhere near optimal, as Covenants only effects the party you are in, not the entire warband when this tactic is slotted. There are blatently better options to choose than this. As such, this is not equal value to 20% healing.

DoKs are, statistically, the least played healer throughout the entire game, I believe that this is due to them not being even remotely comparable in healing to WP's or just about any other healer in the game. Bear in mind, DoK's are much more offensive and DPS minded, but this is a massive issue as a DoKs primary role is that of a healer, not of a DPS. In healing, they are ineffecient compared to other Destro and Order classes. In DPS they are better than most healing classes, however, again, their primary role is that of a healer, and their damage, prior to getting into high-end gear (Warlord/Sov) is meager compared to a real DPS.

Now, on to KotBs

Knights of the Blazing Sun have a mastery called "Focused Mending", this increases all healing received from all sources by 15%. This is a tactic that empowers "Stay Focused" which provides a small HoT when the player defends against an attack. This alone is fine, as the Chosen has a means to counter it (Whether Chosen players actually use it or not is a completely different argument), however, when stacked with the Warrior Priest, this becomes an issue as it means that a Warrior Priest can heal for up to 35% extra, further increasing the budget for defensive slots/items/talismans.

This is why there are so many KotBS in the game, this flat incoming healing buff is simply too powerful to ignore and is far too powerful when used with other healing increasing abilities.

Suggestions:

In an ideal world, my suggestion would be to give DoKs a version of Exalted Defences and move on, however that will never happen, we all know that will never, ever happen. What I would suggest in turn, would be to remove Potent Covenants entirely; I have yet to meet a single DoK that uses it nor have I ever been recommended its use as a BiS tactic, and to then have an identical version of Exalted Defences given to DoKs.

P.S. I shouldn't have to mention this, but this is not about Rampage, GTDC, Mara Pull, WL's or any other class/ability, this is heavily focused on DoKs and Warrior Priests, with a sprinkle of KotBS in for good measure, don't turn it into a Rampage Thread.

[Bavradai]

Da elephant in da room.
Order healing is out of control when they're specifically in groups to exploit all the +incoming and +outgoing healing buffs that are lavishly placed upon them. It means Destro have to have a 50% healing debuff up at all times on at least two-three targets to counter all the +healing order has.

[Wiede]

Afaik devs mentioned they're not happy with it (unconditioned 15% +heal) either but have decided to keep it until rework of the aura system. But that was a few years Back so...

WP +heal% is not a problem imho. Not trying to kill one first target and they dont have so much procs vs. melee ball of destro... less parry than disrupt/dodge.

I dont think its additive, also chosen healdebuff reduces all efficiency by 25% so its more like 12 and 15%. Its very good, probably OP, but not that imbalanced as RWMPAGE (i said it! derail successful!)

[Faldrino]

Afaik devs mentioned they're not happy with it (unconditioned 15% +heal) either but have decided to keep it until rework of the aura system. But that was a few years Back so...

WP +heal% is not a problem imho. Not trying to kill one first target and they dont have so much procs vs. melee ball of destro... less parry than disrupt/dodge.

I dont think its additive, also chosen healdebuff reduces all efficiency by 25% so its more like 12 and 15%. Its very good, probably OP, but not that imbalanced as RWMPAGE (i said it! derail successful!)

I mean, in terms of the KOTBS aura, I'm (personally) not fussed - I still think it's a bit dumb that it's a flat 15% - I know that Chosen can counter it with their Aura, but oh well.

I think that the tactic itself is kind of overtuned, on my DoK (RR73) I regularly have 50%+ disrupt, and WP's can slot an extra 10% as a tactic. The real issue I have with it is that DoKs don't have anything that's comparable. I will agree with anyone that says they can do more damage, they're much more DPS focused than w warrior priest, but a DoK isn't a DPS, they're a healer and not a great one by any metric.

The amount of useless, fluff-damage DoKs I see is astonishing. 100k damage, 5k to kills, it's a waste of a spot for a good DPS. I really think that DoKs need to have some of their DPS tactics/masteries cut out and given healing ones, or at least nerfed to make room for healing ones. Their healing is mid at best and their DPS, unless BiS, is meh at best.

You better stop that de-railing, put this thread back on track!

[Tesq]

It's more like the dok def tactic sich being really bad (always has been in part now is jsut got worse), after the detaunt nerf the dok lost 1 def tactic, wp simply slot +20% heal and build more avoidance maybe, dok cant do both since slayer just ignore anything, and you don't have access to heal tactic; the core racial +10% tactic is really under performing as def tactic. Also since your heals are less potent than wp the wp/dok heal cost problem get exacerbat. Pre-hotting with dok in wb alredy leave you in need to rec, with few heals return. The diff in mobility, spamming potential, heal potential between my am ( and could be just shamm) and my dok is all in favor of my am.

Cant be a tanky dok anymore, cant static cast heal anymore, no panic button, no heal while moving, you wont reach shammy numbers in healing mode, group cleanse are unimportant when so much goinfg around or just 5 slayers spamming rampage + ID, you wont cleanse ****.

I still think dok/wp detaunt change should be reverted as start, it was a nerf made due shield dok overperforming in ranked ages ago, and these classes should litteraly be in theory statis casters ( they litterly cant spam heals while 100% moving around), even if they cant kite around they still requrie to stand still to cast stuff. Then repositioning and cast static elsewhere. But Again one of the problems is the slayer murderball going around ID the world then pop a channeling and killing whatever...

-one bandaid would be buff to 20% the heal racial tactic of d.elf from 10%
-another one revert the detaunt change
-another one could be improve the heal proc from vitality so that it offer better heals overall and are trackable on dok numbers, so you can spec more tanky or spam less to achive the same results.

What im sure is that the sich is caused by neutral change done over the time thinking that both classes would perform the same when these two classes are in nature very different and have very different realm sinergy; they would require ad hoc fixing.

[Detangler]

Dok and WP share a lot of abilities and tactics. The book/chalice heal spec has a lot of the same tactics required (group cleanse, aoe detaunt, maybe even the self absorb on crit heal one), so really you should be comparing what DoK can do vs. what WP can do with this last slot.

Slotting Discipline will give a flat increase to healing all the time, while exalted defenses will boost a % only at certain times. Overall its a pretty low increase when active.

Also, please dont slot willpower talismans. Toughness, wounds, armor are much better options all around. Dead healers can't heal.

[Scottx125]

Dok and WP share a lot of abilities and tactics. The book/chalice heal spec has a lot of the same tactics required (group cleanse, aoe detaunt, maybe even the self absorb on crit heal one), so really you should be comparing what DoK can do vs. what WP can do with this last slot.

Slotting Discipline will give a flat increase to healing all the time, while exalted defenses will boost a % only at certain times. Overall its a pretty low increase when active.

Also, please dont slot willpower talismans. Toughness, wounds, armor are much better options all around. Dead healers can't heal.

I generally agree with the sentiment but you only need to outlive your group. If you can survive through the AOE (if you're getting focused there's no amount of armour/toughness/wounds that'll save you) then you should balance that with WP/Critheal.

It's also worth noting DoK is designed to be slightly more offensive, WP is designed to be more defensive. Which is why the DoK is superior as a melee class. However with the changes coming (at least to the gear) WP (not sure about DoK though I'd imagine it's mirrored) will be able to cast from distance with the SOV gear proc change (without much downtime). As I've always believed positioning and being able to remove yourself from near the frontline is better than any amount of armour/toughness/wounds you can slot.

[zumos2]

You cannot compare 2 random tactics of WP and DoK and then conclude that book WP is somehow way better than chalice DoK. Balance and the game is much more complex. For one Discipline giving a flat heal increase of roughly 10% is overall quite similar in power level to Exalted Defenses. The willpower you get from Discipline also increases your disrupt chance a bit.

Even though I think you shouldn't just compare mirrors when balancing, even if we did for the sake of this discussion, DoK also has several advantages. Pillage Essence giving DoK way stronger SE management than WP can get. It is way safer for DoK to play close to the melee train in large scale as they don't have to fear to be pulled into the meatgrinder. DoK also has a much stronger M2, which will also get buffed to cleanse everything with the upcoming patch. Potent Covenant will become much more usefull with upcoming patch as well, with Covenant of Celerity being able to proc on multiple targets with AoE attacks.

[Faldrino]

You cannot compare 2 random tactics of WP and DoK and then conclude that book WP is somehow way better than chalice DoK. Balance and the game is much more complex. For one Discipline giving a flat heal increase of roughly 10% is overall quite similar in power level to Exalted Defenses. The willpower you get from Discipline also increases your disrupt chance a bit.

Discipline helps, but WP's get it too, so using it in an argument against why I'm wrong doesn't help your case - You get Discipline and Exalted Defenses at the same time, whereas we get some Willpower. Arguably, it benefits a WP even more as it provides Disrupt too, which can be used to trigger Exalted Defenses.

Even though I think you shouldn't just compare mirrors when balancing, even if we did for the sake of this discussion, DoK also has several advantages. Pillage Essence giving DoK way stronger SE management than WP can get.

Discussing SnB DoK/WP isn't what I was pointing too, I'd argue that 70% of players are go Chalice/Book, so point is kinda moot there.

It is way safer for DoK to play close to the melee train in large scale as they don't have to fear to be pulled into the meatgrinder.

Read the P.S note at the bottom of my original post please.

DoK also has a much stronger M2, which will also get buffed to cleanse everything with the upcoming patch. Potent Covenant will become much more usefull with upcoming patch as well, with Covenant of Celerity being able to proc on multiple targets with AoE attacks.

Reading about Provisional patch notes that are subject to change and aren't even applied to live servers yet doesn't help here either. If we're going to start pointing at Morales, I'd like to direct your attention to the WP M1 and the DoK M1. Compare the two and decide which you would rather have in a fight.

[zumos2]

You cannot compare 2 random tactics of WP and DoK and then conclude that book WP is somehow way better than chalice DoK. Balance and the game is much more complex. For one Discipline giving a flat heal increase of roughly 10% is overall quite similar in power level to Exalted Defenses. The willpower you get from Discipline also increases your disrupt chance a bit.

Discipline helps, but WP's get it too, so using it in an argument against why I'm wrong doesn't help your case - You get Discipline and Exalted Defenses at the same time, whereas we get some Willpower. Arguably, it benefits a WP even more as it provides Disrupt too, which can be used to trigger Exalted Defenses.

Even though I think you shouldn't just compare mirrors when balancing, even if we did for the sake of this discussion, DoK also has several advantages. Pillage Essence giving DoK way stronger SE management than WP can get.

Discussing SnB DoK/WP isn't what I was pointing too, I'd argue that 70% of players are go Chalice/Book, so point is kinda moot there.

It is way safer for DoK to play close to the melee train in large scale as they don't have to fear to be pulled into the meatgrinder.

Read the P.S note at the bottom of my original post please.

DoK also has a much stronger M2, which will also get buffed to cleanse everything with the upcoming patch. Potent Covenant will become much more usefull with upcoming patch as well, with Covenant of Celerity being able to proc on multiple targets with AoE attacks.

Reading about Provisional patch notes that are subject to change and aren't even applied to live servers yet doesn't help here either. If we're going to start pointing at Morales, I'd like to direct your attention to the WP M1 and the DoK M1. Compare the two and decide which you would rather have in a fight.

- You seem to think that you have an infinite amount of tactic slots. You don't have enough slots to run both Exalted Defenses and Discipline, so my point remains valid.
- The fact that you think that Pillage Essence is only relevant for SnB DoK says enough about your knowledge about the class.
- You cannot ignore overall realm balance and differences between the two realms. Context matters when it comes to balance, especially if you try to compare mirrors (which I would advise against anyway).
- Even currently I prefer playing my DoK over WP and the upcoming changes give more little buffs to DoK.