[WL] Pet getting worse and worse

[Farrul]

I didn't play WL before the new ability system

Oh dear, then please do not type. As any WL player can tell you, the pet runs slow compared to previously.

So the Pet being 50% slower is either all in your head, or you are mistaking bad pathing with diminished run speed.
If for some reason the Pet was as fast as a 60% mount before, that is not indicated in the patchnotes.
In that case, if you can find evidence for that (video. twitch clips, patchnotes) it could be fixed.

Previous to the ability patch( to the very last moment before the server went down to update the new patch) the pet was fast and could quickly gap distance with enemy players including goblins, the pet pull was usable without having to press charge, it was even usable without speed training to some extent.

Then patch went live and suddenly the Pet runs so slow it despawns behind the player WL, it can't keep up at all, they fixed that ''bug'' but the speed remains slow.

The pathing is a seperate issue, seems to have been improved a bit although many issues still remains. Evidence is in this case common knowledge amongst everyone who played a WL with a pet summoned, it is a night / day difference in how obvious it is.

Hence you shouldn't even comment in the first place without experience of your own.

[akisnaakkeli]

I didn't play WL before the new ability system

Oh dear, then please do not type. As any WL player can tell you, the pet runs slow compared to previously.

So the Pet being 50% slower is either all in your head, or you are mistaking bad pathing with diminished run speed.
If for some reason the Pet was as fast as a 60% mount before, that is not indicated in the patchnotes.
In that case, if you can find evidence for that (video. twitch clips, patchnotes) it could be fixed.

Previous to the ability patch( to the very last moment before the server went down to update the new patch) the pet was fast and could quickly gap distance with enemy players including goblins, the pet pull was usable without having to press charge, it was even usable without speed training to some extent.

Then patch went live and suddenly the Pet runs so slow it despawns behind the player WL, it can't keep up at all, they fixed that ''bug'' but the speed remains slow.

The pathing is a seperate issue, seems to have been improved a bit although many issues still remains. Evidence is in this case common knowledge amongst everyone who played a WL with a pet summoned, it is a night / day difference in how obvious it is.

Hence you shouldn't even comment in the first place without experience of your own.

I dont remember my original reasoning for this but I think changes to Pet Reaction Time is part why the pet is so broken. Reaction Time went From 2s to 0.15?s which means the lion tries too much too fast and can be outmove it by jumpable bridgewall and staying in place and wl pet will never cross that goddamn bridgewall he used to walk over : D I might be ofc totally wrong about this and if i am pls correct me!

2017 Pet was on the Keep walls when you Used Pounce, And Pet was also at the target if you did Pounce in Mid Air which would result in Lava death in any other characther but Wl with Pounce is The exception class. Meant to be a tank but is dps kinda 4-way mirrored but 10s snare 5s CD and Leonine Frenzy Critting for 1k while your AA hits 1k even a bit before you land on the enemy, because pounce activates it and 50% AA haste means youve hit 2 AA hits by the time you used Armour debuff + then Pounce had delayed dmg for 1s and Crits for 1k. Then Brutal Pounce/Lf for 1k/AA for 1k/Coordinated Strikes for 3k and target was dead.

I feel like Old Wl+SIngle target Sorc are kind of the same but in reverse Wl just appears and does huge amounts, and Sorc feels like it just appeared but has been preparing 10s. Also to some people justifying Wl pet being useless as a good thing because its a pug killer or whatever... wtf it really goes to show that some really want to take the fun and options away how people play the game because petty AF reasons

[leftayparxoun]

I didn't play WL before the new ability system

Oh dear, then please do not type. As any WL player can tell you, the pet runs slow compared to previously.

So the Pet being 50% slower is either all in your head, or you are mistaking bad pathing with diminished run speed.
If for some reason the Pet was as fast as a 60% mount before, that is not indicated in the patchnotes.
In that case, if you can find evidence for that (video. twitch clips, patchnotes) it could be fixed.

Previous to the ability patch( to the very last moment before the server went down to update the new patch) the pet was fast and could quickly gap distance with enemy players including goblins, the pet pull was usable without having to press charge, it was even usable without speed training to some extent.

Then patch went live and suddenly the Pet runs so slow it despawns behind the player WL, it can't keep up at all, they fixed that ''bug'' but the speed remains slow.

The pathing is a seperate issue, seems to have been improved a bit although many issues still remains. Evidence is in this case common knowledge amongst everyone who played a WL with a pet summoned, it is a night / day difference in how obvious it is.

Hence you shouldn't even comment in the first place without experience of your own.

After asking around, it seems I was wrong with assuming the Pet speed was as it is now. I had to do some additional testing and searching around but here is what I found:

• There is this bugreport from December 2023 that describes the issue: https://bugs.returnofreckoning.com/view.php?id=21803

• There might be more than one differences to the old Pet movement, the main one being the Pet base speed. You can read more on that in the initial report and my added comment.

• If these differences are due to an old bug that was fixed on the Ability Rework, a new bug that was introduced in the Ability Rework, or an intended result of a balance change, it remains to be seen. If it's the first or the last case, it should be specified and added in the Dec 9th patchnotes.

I might not have had experience with WL prior to the ability rework, but anyone can go and test stuff out and help the Devs with the Bugtracker. In some cases maybe the solution is trivial but the issue has not been properly documented.

[Farrul]

After asking around, it seems I was wrong with assuming the Pet speed was as it is now. I had to do some additional testing and searching around but here is what I found:

• There is this bugreport from December 2023 that describes the issue: https://bugs.returnofreckoning.com/view.php?id=21803

• There might be more than one differences to the old Pet movement, the main one being the Pet base speed. You can read more on that in the initial report and my added comment.

• If these differences are due to an old bug that was fixed on the Ability Rework, a new bug that was introduced in the Ability Rework, or an intended result of a balance change, it remains to be seen. If it's the first or the last case, it should be specified and added in the Dec 9th patchnotes.

I might not have had experience with WL prior to the ability rework, but anyone can go and test stuff out and help the Devs with the Bugtracker. In some cases maybe the solution is trivial but the issue has not been properly documented.

This would be my assumption as well, the pet base speed is off hence the speed training tactic is also affected.

Whilst i do agree to help out the team i also think those that develop this should be aware of such a glaring issue? I was roaming on my WL at the time of the server countdown to apply the new ability rework patch, patched it and logged back in to find the pet is unrecognizable, a shadow of its former self.

[Aluviya]

I made a suggestion ages ago regarding both WL and Squig pets, but it got lost amidst the usual suggestions in the corresponding section of the forum.

I am still somewhat convinced there is no quality solution here, as the game's core simply isn't built to support "pets" effectively. I've played this game long enough to see all kinds of WL states, from being an entirely broken pet class, to a reasonable choice as anti-range, to a class that is mostly forgettable and better used as an AoE DPS without the pet.

From the perspective of group ranked play, it's really no fun having a WL on the team. The damage is quite low when the pet is dead, and the pet is usually dead because everyone makes sure to kill it as soon as it's up and there are only workaround to target the pet as a healer (try doing that in a crowd with a squig pet - it's not fun trying to click at it). Additionally, even SH struggles with the way pets are designed, sometimes running randomly into the melee blob, and both classes require a lot of micromanagement of the pet to play the class to its limits (without addons, that is).

Moreover, the ranged pet can do crazy amounts of damage, while the WL pet is quite stationary and lacks the same capabilities due to its melee requirement.

My final conclusion, taking into consideration that pathfinding won't be fixed or will be removed, is that pets should generally just be a visual companion. They could retain attack animations, but the balance of the corresponding classes should be within the class itself, without the need to balance the pet or its movement-related issues alongside them.

[Farrul]

Well, the Wl pet just need to come back as ''anti range'' tool for roaming, it was never a tool for WB play or large scale and most WL's accepted that. This was always the equilibrium between the factions, destro has speedy Goblins for roaming around and Order Wl(pet) to keep their numbers at bay.

With this equilibrium compromised the balance is off , hence people want the goblins nerfed since the natural predator to give them a challenge is currently offline.

As for a ''real'' solution to pets, it would be great if the devs could do something tangible about them once and for all, fix their many issues(all of them, uncluding engi/magus/sh/wl , all the bugs in the Thunder Mountains etc ).

For the Wl pet specifically, if it could just be restored to what it was before the ability patch, i think most WL players would be content with it.

[Shogun4138]

Just get rid of pets, get rid of all pets.

[Farrul]

To me personally the WL is not a fun class without the Pet and its associated abilities, the AoE ''loner'' build is simple and uninteresting in its mechanics, loner always felt like a placeholder tactic for not being able to fix pets properly ( mainly survivability issues in large scale)

I don't agree with removing them since a large part of the class identity and flavor would be lost without them.

At the same time i can understand where this intention comes from, the game never handled pets well, unfortunately.

I can't speak for the other pet classes since i do not have much experiene playing with them but as far as the white lion is concerned, the survivability of a supposed ''melee'' pet is pathetic in warhammer online. It has a 15sec CD to make it extra punishing and painful to play with.

Just look at games like WoW , pets could survive well enough in the large scale pvp battles like Alterac battlegrounds, they were near immune to aoe damage and resilient to singletarget damage( iirc significant player reduction vs pets). Or had short CD's ( at least here the SH can summon a new Pet, WL must wait 15 sec which starts after the Pet has died, sadly)

In this case the ''WoW'' devs understood something that the ''warhammer'' devs did not, that pets if they are going to work well must be able to survive, since they are linked to class core abilities and functionality.

[akisnaakkeli]

To me personally the WL is not a fun class without the Pet and its associated abilities, the AoE ''loner'' build is simple and uninteresting in its mechanics, loner always felt like a placeholder tactic for not being able to fix pets properly ( mainly survivability issues in large scale)

I don't agree with removing them since a large part of the class identity and flavor would be lost without them.

At the same time i can understand where this intention comes from, the game never handled pets well, unfortunately.

I can't speak for the other pet classes since i do not have much experiene playing with them but as far as the white lion is concerned, the survivability of a supposed ''melee'' pet is pathetic in warhammer online. It has a 15sec CD to make it extra punishing and painful to play with.

Just look at games like WoW , pets could survive well enough in the large scale pvp battles like Alterac battlegrounds, they were near immune to aoe damage and resilient to singletarget damage( iirc significant player reduction vs pets). Or had short CD's ( at least here the SH can summon a new Pet, WL must wait 15 sec which starts after the Pet has died, sadly)

In this case the ''WoW'' devs understood something that the ''warhammer'' devs did not, that pets if they are going to work well must be able to survive, since they are linked to class core abilities and functionality.

I agree that WL is not fun without the Pet. Its very weird to me how pet really worked better, much better in RoR 2017. Warhammer Age Of Reckoning did not have these pet issues that RoR has, pets got all the grp heals and buffs except you couldnt guard them but everything else pets ofc got as well. And Aor only had 5s Downtime where Wl cant do actual dmg and this build is blocked in RoR... I have no clue why since the pet is so pathetic. Taking full advantage out of the build possibilities is deemed too powerful or unfair or whatever else. I honestly dont know 50% of the time if someone is just trolling or really just has no clue when saying things like " SH Disarm is the most op thing ever " WTF : D

This build was THE build for me most of the time, Silence was Core(Since Wl is like the only melee dps that doesnt get disarm) And Echoing Roar was where the Silence is now and Pounce was where echoing roar is now. Basically when your pet dies you have 75% dmg Increase with Revenge and Loner, and i obviously saved the 25% dmg buff to make it 100% dmg increase for 10sec=) Then still the last 5s without your pet you anyway had 25% dmg increase from Loner. This is imo the best and probably only way to deal with the shortcomings of the pet, and after a while same people didnt kill the pet because it was 75%-100% dmg increase depending if Primal Fury was on cooldown. Bring this possibility back and start doing this to all the gutted builds and classes

RoR.builders - White Lion

[Farrul]

I agree that WL is not fun without the Pet. Its very weird to me how pet really worked better, much better in RoR 2017. Warhammer Age Of Reckoning did not have these pet issues that RoR has, pets got all the grp heals and buffs except you couldnt guard them but everything else pets ofc got as well. And Aor only had 5s Downtime where Wl cant do actual dmg and this build is blocked in RoR... I have no clue why since the pet is so pathetic. Taking full advantage out of the build possibilities is deemed too powerful or unfair or whatever else. I honestly dont know 50% of the time if someone is just trolling or really just has no clue when saying things like " SH Disarm is the most op thing ever " WTF : D

There was likely several enhancement made over the years that seems to have been completely wiped with the ability rework patch, hence how slow the pet now is and other AI related issues that were improven upon previously.

IThis build was THE build for me most of the time, Silence was Core(Since Wl is like the only melee dps that doesnt get disarm) And Echoing Roar was where the Silence is now and Pounce was where echoing roar is now. Basically when your pet dies you have 75% dmg Increase with Revenge and Loner, and i obviously saved the 25% dmg buff to make it 100% dmg increase for 10sec=) Then still the last 5s without your pet you anyway had 25% dmg increase from Loner. This is imo the best and probably only way to deal with the shortcomings of the pet, and after a while same people didnt kill the pet because it was 75%-100% dmg increase depending if Primal Fury was on cooldown. Bring this possibility back and start doing this to all the gutted builds and classes

RoR.builders - White Lion

What should have been given to the WL pet is a lot more uptime through increased pet survivability and lower CD. It is absurd in game design how this Pet can have 15 sec CD whith this level of low survivability, this regardless of the current state with AI issues. No idea how the devs of ror don't see this as a HUGE imbalance, i mean turrets have 5S cooldown and SH can resummon another Squig to maintain tactics pet abilities,

But the one melee pet has low survivability (a lot more exposed to damage) and has a 15 sec cooldown, it makes no balance sense at all.