[PTS] Patch Notes 16/08/2024

[GONDOR]

It's taken me a couple of days to drum up the desire to post feedback on the weapon skill change, mostly because it feels like shouting into the wind. Balance direction has consistently missed many of the marks when it comes to small scale and non-wb play, and this weapon skill change (imo) reflect that and continue this trend by nerfing some of the other hybrid specs and forcing players to play ways they don't want to. I don't want to play a certain spec, and tbh instead of respeccing, I just wouldn't play.

I don't think the removal from parry is that well thought out;

1. The mindset that stats shouldn't have offensive and defensive provisions is wrong. It's common in most RPGs and is a core concept (agility, characteristic checks etc.) for multiple games in this genre and other genres.

Everyone talking about how willpower isn't an offensive stat is peddling cope, willpower scales abilities like strength or intelligence, and unike initiative or toughness; I don't know if any ability that scales off these passive stats, unlike willpower. Calling the change fine because it isn't an offensive stat is just weak (and imo fake) justification to defend it; there's not much ground or rationale behind "it shouldn't do two things" - all of ror's stats have multiple benefits.

Saying that it's one stat point to gain both an offensive and defensive benefit, imho makes the stat weaker and less efficient than a mono-purpose stat; the only reason the defensive attribute is so valuable is due to the insanely generous aoes and melee meta that exists.

All mdps stack strength to cap first, because it gives the greatest return for damage. Weapon skill comes after because it's the best avenue to further boost damage. For many mdps is about that deeps; bulk comes after.


2. Removing parry from WS will asymmetrically buff some classes and nerf others, like magic-dealing 2h tanks (chosen and SM). They don't need to pack WS just for parry and arp, they can dump into ini and receive greater benefit from stat allocations.

I also can't wait for healers to start parrying tank punts, cc, etc.

IMHO this is also a big nerf for the regular 2h tanks, and as much as many players don't like 2h tanks, the reality is changes like this doesn't lead to more snb tanks, it just leads to less tanks - no one will play a spec they don't enjoy or didn't sign up to play.

All of the physical 2h tanks rely on weapon skill to help them mitigate guard damage and provide the armour pen they need to be an effective assistant on most meta targets. Pushing the stat priority to ini just means you may as well roll shield cause you are no longer an assistant, and just a debuff bot.

It's changes like this that drive people out of the game and have lead to where we are today. Like personally, I've played ror on only mostly the one class and spec for the last 5 years because I enjoyed the class and the experience that class provides. No other class captures or scratches that itch - I won't play another class or spec because changes make it unviable; I'll just play a different game.

There are a lot of games out there competing for the player audience, and the end of the day the priority is enjoyment.


3. It reduces melee bulk from sustaining in melee.

You could say this is ameliorated by people picking up parry in initiative, and to a point that's true, but the current sets core itemisation does not have the allocated stat budget to initiative to make up the difference in bulk.

We will see a big drop in melee combat as a concept, survivability of some melee dps to drop, and also the damage output of melee will drop as they split allocations. The damage drop won't make up the difference in lengthening ttk as without avoidance the amount of fluff aoe will be enough cleave that people will be eating much more damage.


4. Current itemisation doesn't support it change for melee - a huge chunk of weapon skill comes from gear before talismans. Many sets were designed and budgeted under the old system; you would need to re-allocate budgets for parry % or initiative to give similar (but still less) levels of bulk compared to what melee have at the moment

I highly doubt that we will see people having initiative similar to their current weapon skill, and subsequently they won't have a similar level of parry, even if they stack initiative.


5. This change doesn't really address why weapon skill is so good and taken primarily; it's not because of the parry. The is a key benefit, but ws is usually picked up for the armour pen it provides.

Moving parry off it maintains the whole gripe mdps often have of "we have to spec into 2 stats to do damage", but considerably ups their risk. That's a reasonable tradeoff on paper, but when it starts getting into melee, parry helps melee survive the insane amount of fluff aoe that currently goes on.

It changes the value of armour too; if people don't stack weapon skill, we will see armour being the better stat to stack than toughness.


6. Makes initiative too good .
One of the reasons to change WS is because it's too good; but now initiative becomes exceptional. -CTBC has long been the top defensive priority, and with the extra crit it'll be more important.

Now initiative gives increased -ctbc, dodge, stealth detection, AND parry. That makes it the best stat to pile on because no other stat gives you such strong defensive returns. Avoidance is far superior to toughness; you don't need to increase your EHP if you don't get hit.


7. Initiative is skewed across the races with elves at the top and dwarves and orcs at the bottom.

It doesn't seem like a lot but those extra % really stack up when you're trying to hit certain breakpoints (like 250 ini), and can mean the difference in viability and having to take RR in stat blocks. While I can hear the babies say "well good, you need to make decisions", some races don't have to make decisions at all; when it comes to crucial stats, that's not balance that's an actual bias.

---
My suggestion is if you wanted to nerf weapon skill, then make it a technical stat; keep parry there, move parry strike through to it, put block strike through on initiative, and move armour penetration to strength.

While it seems counter intuitive to have weapon skill cancel itself out; it's better having it as a technical stat for melee checks IMHO., and something that melee will want to have. It gives snb tanks a stat that isn't strength to increase their tonk and help them land blows and keeps melee attributes within their design arenas.

[SZ244663]

Honestly speaking none of the patches since ability rework in terms of balancing has made the game more balanced nor fun if anything playerbase seem more frustrated, it seems to just lead to one bandaid after the other and we are back to exactly previous balancing of RoR over the years (SH rework, Broadheadarrow etc)

I think that's a bit of a simplification. Sure, patches have been hit or miss in terms of reception, but we had some that were very well received by the community.

• January 10th (Snare Equalization + Magus/Engi buffs) viewtopic.php?f=42&t=52335

• January 19th (BO/SM and other class changes + Book/Chalice resource gain normalization) viewtopic.php?f=42&t=52372

• March 11th (Dmg procs no longer affected by non-gear dmg% modifiers)
  viewtopic.php?f=42&t=52715

• May 3rd (AOE radius decreases, AOE line width increases, Proc dmg scaling changes, Tank changes + more, Reintroduction of gear in Gold bags)
  viewtopic.php?f=42&t=53038 (only the removal of You Wot soured the reception a bit)

I'd say overall that the team had more hits than misses overall, with the caveat being that the 3 most recent patches (also counting this PTS one) have been perceived more negatively overall. While people can argue that we are in a downward trend, we should not forget the hard work that's been done and the results it brought in.

As much as I want to say that progress is being made, in the last three patches the server population as a whole has continued to decrease and that right there is slowly degrading the play experience for all. I think it’s unfortunate but many are starting to look elsewhere - these changes if actually implemented I fear will be the continuation of the end of the project.


I’ve been working hard over the past few weeks to try and help bring more attention to the server but this DRASTIC change in main stats like weapon skill and initiative are super disruptive and really going to push a lot of people away from wanting to continue melee dps and I have seen many switching to leveling up sorc and shadow warrior, BW etc. This is concerning as there already is a big advantage for ranged dps and these changes just help contribute to their advantages even more so.

I really want to help support this project (was even thinking about streaming and making tutorial videos) but I feel like if these changes for initiative and weapon skill etc go through, I really will lose all the motivation.


MORE research is needed on the general opinion of the people who play the game, something like a SURVEY of the public to gauge what are the main things we can focus. Right now patch notes and direction of the game seem to be so disconnected from the actual individual player experience, players feel like they’re not being heard, and this is driving so many people away. We want to help support this project. We want to play WAR. But things need to change. Please let more people participate in RVR focus groups to give feedback.


To my dear friends developers:

First you guys have done a great job in PvE. Fantastic. And we appreciate just how much you have sacrificed for the game, for the project, for us. I wish I knew how to do code and help you guys more. But the least I can do is advocate for the things that at the broadest level will help retain new and old players alike, and as the players of the game WE ARE YOUR EYES AND EARS. Let us help each other and give feedback. These posts in the last couple days hopefully show you all just how much we too love this project and WAR and all we ask is for you guys to give us more of a say, hear us out PLEASE. The mainstat changes are going to drastically change the dynamic of the game, and have significant consequences for the population of the server. I think the changes in the keep lord mechanics are FANTASTIC — please keep those. But the weapon skill / initiative etc changes should be discarded for now, and further discussion had on what changes should be made to balance.

[SZ244663]

What I dont seem to agree with in this general PTS patch, is that main attributes are getting touched after being the same for so many years.
The timing is odd for me after the Ring event, and Why do it in the middle of the roadmap changes. Why does it make sense to do it after Tanks are done, healers are halftway done (?) and dps are not touches yet?

I lack the insight and overview to see why this fundamental change is happening now, are the dps changes already planned and these changes are part of the end goal? If so, this send strange vibes of when we had GCD increased for reasonings mentioned for needs arriving half a year later. Can we get the full picture at once please, so we know what we are actually gonna test and what the end product will look like. These half baked approaches are not landing well imho.

IF ballancing proves to be too annoying or too hard to deal with, then please just stop trying. And focus on gamemechanics which more desperately needs attention for Scenario matchmaking, orvr game mechanics, progression and FUN of the game.

Honestly speaking none of the patches since ability rework in terms of balancing has made the game more balanced nor fun if anything playerbase seem more frustrated, it seems to just lead to one bandaid after the other and we are back to exactly previous balancing of RoR over the years (SH rework, Broadheadarrow etc)
Time to let go of the E-sports balanced game dream and instead accept Warhammer for what it was meant to be, two realms with different tools and playstyles and then give us fun scenarios, orvr and pvp where we can use our realm strengths with good gamemode-mechanics in SCs, orvr.

The keeplord and fortress changes were pretty spot in, noone is talking about it because its drowning in fiddling with mainstats now for whatever reason not needed nor wanted. Focus on game mechanics, please!

Bombling the more I see your posts the more I agree with you hahaha! I agree 100% that the keeplord and fortress changes were spot on. FANTASTIC, I think this will improve game experience for all no doubt about it.

I also 100% agree to let go of the notion that we cannot try to make everything perfectly balanced and instead let Warhammer be about two different realms and with different tools and play styles.


MOST IMPORTANTLY, this is not a dig at any Developer’s ideas or abilities. It is mainly a suggestion because we all want to see the project succeed. I think the balancing changes for weapon skill and initiative will do MUCH more harm than good - I hope other things can be changed instead like mentioned above:

1. Scenario/SC matchmaking
2. oRVR (so far, FANTASTIC changes to help make smaller groups have a better chance of fort defense by making bigger armies split up etc).
3. Progression (way too hard for new players to understand and learn how to progress in the game).
4. FUN OF THE GAME

For what it’s worth, I do promise that if the mainstat balance changes are discontinued then I will be working hard to help improve #3 and #4 as much as I can.

I have many ideas for YouTube videos, Twitch, etc. And I am happy to help how I can. But we need to feel heard AND supported and listening to our feedback on this would be very much appreciated and motivate the people playing the game to support and continue playing this amazing project. God bless!

[3Form]

What I dont seem to agree with in this general PTS patch, is that main attributes are getting touched after being the same for so many years.

As far as I can tell this is just a follow on from some pretty serious changes back in January that weren't really discussed that much at the time?

It basically involved unlinking stat-based parry from a comparison between the attacker and the defender into a flat bonus that scales linearly with weaponskill. And similarly for dodge (BS/Init) and disrupt (intelligence/willpower).

From my understanding, previously this parry bonus was calculated as the ratio between defender WS and attacker strength, multiplied by 10%. So, if the opponents have equal WS/Strength (e.g. two mdps with say 800 str and 800 WS each), the parry chance is 10%.

After these changes in January, with WS awarding 3x as much parry as strength gives strikethrough (str gives 1% strikethrough), the defender now gets 16% chance to parry. This only increases as the two stats increase (e.g. 1000 str vs 1000 WS = 20% parry). This was a huge buff imo.

AFAIK, previously guard hit with effective 150 strength, which meant tanks didn't need a huge amount of WS to get a good amount of parry vs it. Not sure how it works now.

Personally, I'm not necessarily sure the proposed changes are the way to go, but right now I feel WS is way too strong. Though I much preferred the old system with interaction between the stats of the attacker / defender.

[what63]

Willpower doesn't increase offensive capabilities.

Technically it does for dps RP/Zealot. But yeah.

But does not increase defenses while doing so. The mechanic converts it to actual intelligence, it doesn't just make abilities scale with willpower.

Anyways the person above is mostly spot on. The reason this is such a controversy in the first place is that WS was MASSIVELY buffed not long ago to begin with. It's kinda ludicrous that we are crying about mdps loosing some parry, when not many moons ago WS gave effectively none anyways! Absolutely hilarious, to be honest, how little perspective there is to go around.

[Fenris78]

The game was mdps centric for ages lately there is some rdps boom and everyone start to panic. Cant get that, some meta shift from time to time is good thing imo.

The issue is this :

Tl:Dr The imbalance between Magic vs physical in this game is a fact, resistance as a stat is underpowered compared to armor. And Disrupt might as well not exist unless someone is holding the line with a shield and people standing behind it.

You can say exactly the same for dodge wich obey to same rules, with overall slightly better Initiative than willpower on average, but still becoming irrelevant after all strikethrough effects are going on.

While I can agree Parry and block strikethrough looks like relatively well balanced, it's only because when it matters the most, opponent is already stacking high level of parry/block through tactics, skills and globally high weapon skill stats on gear.

Dodge and Disrupt strikethrough need to be removed from Intelligence and ballistic, especially since ranged classes already got multiple ways of bypassing (Pierce defenses, Elf racial, Whitering soul, WoP, etc.) a big chunk of an already weak avoidance.

Ranged already got big advantages, namely mobility/kiting, ranged CC (at least one on each ranged career), morals, skills, to outrun, outlast, or simply avoid being closed by most melee characters.
They dont need on top of that, and all the already very high avoidances strikethrough capabilities (on gear, talismans, even consumables, and tactics/skills), to add another 10% because they already can get through most resistances, saving maybe shield tanks with HtL.

Everyone need to get access to relevant choices about defensive aspect of the game, and currently it's 100% true spending 25% of your available renown points to Deft Defender is not a relevant choice anymore, unless you run with 2 HtL tanks in front of you everytime...

[Zxul]

A very disingenous way to argue.

No one said SH were underpowered

Actually I do remember you saying physical dmg dealers are underpowered 10 or so times, while sh is a physical dmg dealer. So will you make your mind already, are physical dmg dealers underpowered or not? Because it sounds like what you are actually saying, is that physical dmg dealers are underpowered, but only as long as its not classes which you don't like.

City weapon armor debuff clearly doesn't stack with armor debuff spells so you're wrong

City weapon armor debuff doesn't stacks with ability armor debuffs- as I said earlier, scroll up- however it does very much stacks with morale armor debuffs.

Also, wh got plenty of other reasons to use- as I also said, also scroll up.

Trying to involve blessed blade, a specific, unique and actually not commonly used spell when we are trying to get a sense of general physical damage is inappropriate

Remind me, how an ability that 1/3 of the classes in game have a variation of (wh/ we/ wl/ mara, in an "ignore % percentage of enemy armor" version also engi/ wp/ dok), is a unique ability?

"not commonly used spell"- so your actual complain is that, while doing physical dmg, you can't ignore your best anti armor tactic and still do a good dmg? Got you, indeed might be hard to fix.

So your argument is we should all use expensive resistance liniments that dont stack with stat pots?

Last time I checked, it wasn't all that expensive. Also, like I said already- if I roam on magus I need to use a toughness pot which adds exactly 0 dmg, and yet you don't see me complaining. From other hand, you with all the complains about magical dmg seems to be unwilling to use a lini which by itself adds 21% extra mitigation vs all casters. So the actual complain, I take, is that you can't spec all glass cannon, and still have a tank lvl mitigation vs magic?

[Fimbar]

What's the reasoning behind removing 50% of the armor provided by Squig Armor if you don't use the tactic ?

Furthermore
What the reasoning behind NOT removing the same amount on assault stance ?

As far as I understand, and since you provide ABSOLUTLY NO information on why you are doing those unilateral changes, it seems that the armor given by the Squig Armor give to much survivability to rSH.

How is it NOT the case for rSW going into assault stance for survivability prupose ?

Is it for the same reasons range KD has been removed for rSH and not from the rSW ?
And if so, what are those reasons ?

Do you understand why people think balance team is biais ?

[Uchoo]

Choppa/Slayer changes probably good, fixes the mistake of the initial change.

BW/Sorc having crit damage tuned down is probably good.

Reducing Ranged Squig's Armor by 600 in Squig Armor? Okay I guess.

Making Squig Armor deal damage when you enter it? This is incredibly bad. You just immediately break detaunt on everything within 20 feet when you go into Squig Armor? Terrible.

Is SH just supposed to always run Detaunt tactic for Survivability now?

I see that you're absolutely intent on keeping a cast time on Squig Armor. Why isn't Assault stance gaining a cast time? Why isn't SW losing 600 armor? Why don't Shadow Warriors instantly break detaunt on nearby targets when they go into Assault Stance?

Why isn't this being touched when Run Away! breaks upon any Ability Usage?



You're just focusing on all the wrong things. Why wouldn't you just tune down Detaunt Tactic instead of all these other changes? That Tactic is the major difference between SH and SW survivability outside of Basic Squig but you're intent on doing these weird, weird changes.

[salazarn]

A very disingenous way to argue.

No one said SH were underpowered

Actually I do remember you saying physical dmg dealers are underpowered 10 or so times, while sh is a physical dmg dealer. So will you make your mind already, are physical dmg dealers underpowered or not? Because it sounds like what you are actually saying, is that physical dmg dealers are underpowered, but only as long as its not classes which you don't like.

City weapon armor debuff clearly doesn't stack with armor debuff spells so you're wrong

City weapon armor debuff doesn't stacks with ability armor debuffs- as I said earlier, scroll up- however it does very much stacks with morale armor debuffs.

Also, wh got plenty of other reasons to use- as I also said, also scroll up.

Trying to involve blessed blade, a specific, unique and actually not commonly used spell when we are trying to get a sense of general physical damage is inappropriate

Remind me, how an ability that 1/3 of the classes in game have a variation of (wh/ we/ wl/ mara, in an "ignore % percentage of enemy armor" version also engi/ wp/ dok), is a unique ability?

"not commonly used spell"- so your actual complain is that, while doing physical dmg, you can't ignore your best anti armor tactic and still do a good dmg? Got you, indeed might be hard to fix.

So your argument is we should all use expensive resistance liniments that dont stack with stat pots?

Last time I checked, it wasn't all that expensive. Also, like I said already- if I roam on magus I need to use a toughness pot which adds exactly 0 dmg, and yet you don't see me complaining. From other hand, you with all the complains about magical dmg seems to be unwilling to use a lini which by itself adds 21% extra mitigation vs all casters. So the actual complain, I take, is that you can't spec all glass cannon, and still have a tank lvl mitigation vs magic?

let's assume that I use all the liniments no one uses just to amuse you. 180 extra resistance to take a WL to 660resistance. Now apply the 380 magus debuff to that to get 280 that equals 16% mitigation.

656 weaponskill and a 900 armor debuff bring the same WL to 15.8% mitgation or the same essentially.

Aka vs medium armor magical damage is doing 656 stat worth of extra damage for free even vs a linament.

I doubt this will convince you though and I suspect I know why. Cos you play magus and dps sham i'd guess