[PTS] Combustion & Dark magic

[Paxsanarion]

BWs after announced 4.5% nerf - "burn devs alive"
Knigths 2h after they lose all that parry from ws - "meh"

Not sure that comment is appropriate or accurate.

[Tisaya]

nerfing bw/sorc is welcome. its make opurtunity for engi/magus in wb.
magus/engi pets should be instant without tactic slot sacrf.

This means engi/magus will lose utility, mobility, heal, tankiness.... You know, all these things BW/Sorc sacrifice to have a very high damage. Right? ... Right?

[Sever1n]

If this is really 5% nerf then all this pages look to me like one massive overreacting. And again bw got sms elemental shred, and will get rp shred. How much buff its was in %? Or all this campaing was started to prevent future changes/nerfs, and create pressure on devs?

Actually im little concerned about 2x sork/bw timestamping bomb into championchalenged targets and get almost guaranteed kill, that heals almost cant prevent especially with talon on top. We all remember fishing sork groups from ring events that blow up people in air one by one. How much dmg from 2 mages timespamp? 18k? And all this drama about losing 5% of it? How much 2h phys tanks tanks will lose compared to that, espeasially 2h kotbs? Thats why i find this situation funny.

[Caduceus]

A 5% damage nerf is huge for a class that relies on burst (actually, it's huge on any class), but in practical terms we are most likely talking about more than a 5% damage nerf, because Sorc/BW rely on maximum burst (where all their heavy hitters crit) and not on average burst.


With regards to whataboutism referring to nerfs to Engi/Magus/KotBS/etc.: literally no one asked for those nerfs.

Cheering for nonsensical nerfs on other classes because your own class received nonsensical nerfs is how this game probably ended up the way it is.

[Speedyluck]

if this nerf is to be implemented at least lower the self dmg from combustion/dark magic.

[Sever1n]

Im really interested in some actual info about doll results of bw/sork on live/pbt for us all to see if those 5% is huge or tiny, and if nerf is really have no sense. I think bws/sorks here perfectly know their golden rotations to provide it.

About whatabouthism - dear casters still dont realise that with nerf of tanks dps or survivability (where they will need to choose), adding mass resist debuff spam, aoe healshreds, 5% to be crit more, making ws stakers receive more dmg whole melle blob will die extremelly fast, wich result of droping lvl of pressure on bw/sork a lot. So dont forget that ror is ecosystem, and state of other classes have heavy impact on your own. Prob least affected classes of all this will be ranged glasscanons, that will keep distance a pop that halfdead melles. They still will die from sneezing. So actually for dmg its -15%crit dmg but +5% to be crit. And people will be punted away/to sork will have a lot less chanse to actually parry punt. So without any that info, this screams that bw/sork is skinned alive looks a little comic. Maybe some nerf is justified if you look not only your class but whole picture?

[Caduceus]

Prob least affected classes of all this will be ranged glasscanons, that will keep distance a pop that halfdead melles. They still will die from sneezing. So actually for dmg its -15%crit dmg but +5% to be crit.

Ok, but in competitive environments there really is no such thing as safety behind friendly lines.

In 24v24 Sorc/BW will be close-range bomb spec, and in 6v6 Sorc/BW should be under constant pressure of the enemy team.


Sorc/BW in zerg-type situations or casual SCs is a whole other story. All ranged classes have the option to play super safe at the cost of effectiveness, which doesn't really matter because the setting isn't competitive. Play super safe, rack up an inflated K/D, etc.

Yes, time-stamping is pretty brutal when targeting unsupported pugs, but this is not the endgame, and therefore should not be a major factor in class balancing.


I would also stress that theoretical numbers like 10k bursts on dummies, etc. sound like they are massive on paper, but reality is a lot less fancy. Unlike other classes, that burst is all that Sorc/BW has. They rely fully on that heavily telegraphed burst to make the difference. If it whiffs, that's means another 10 second+ setup during which damage is minimal and the enemy team can recover.

When you factor in that the burst is halved pretty much by default by detaunt and guard, a 5k burst doesn't look so imposing anymore. Add ontop of that absorb shields which take away Sorc/BW's primary damage source (crits) and suddenly a telegraphed burst that requires 10 seconds to setup won't even put a dent in a properly supported target. You won't even see their health bar move amidst the constant stream of healing, absorb shields and other types of support the target is receiving.

[germ32]

Can we not act like you absolutely MUST spend a full 10s to do ANY damage to a target?

The optimal way to stack timestamps is to spend a full 10s yes, but (no disrespect) this isn't how quality bws and sorcs play, you will often see good players not use pyroclastic or arctic blast in their combos because it takes too long and they adapt.

Ranged players benefit both from being able to switch targets quickly and from being detaunted by melees that are over 30 feet away. If you are assisting with another player you can and should use target switching to be effective

Couple this with how caster damage faces less mitigation from resists and the fact that casters can now use channel abilities to much greater effectiveness than melees because their targets are less likely to move out of their cone of fire, channels or abilities with cast times can be used to easily stack time stamps for rdps. I think this is good rationale as to why this nerf is a fair adjustment for sorcs and bws because they have the highest chance to Crit and highest Crit damage in the game and can still channel to maximum effectiveness

Using 1s cast times and waiting for ticks of channels it is possible for bws/sorcs to hit enemies with a 1s cast, 2 channel ticks (only one of which can damage the caster) and an instant cast ability within 3s.This can feasibly deal between 4-6k damage spread between 4 ability hits + proc effects. For bws this could extend to 6 ability hits within 4.5s if they have both withering heat and fireball barrage

Let's also not pretend like bws and sorcs are immobile or can't kite? You can use the sequence

1. Flee when in danger
2. Pop action pot
3. Use nova or ID and consume combustion to gain even more ap and keep casting while running

There is always a point where you will be able to do this before you are in danger aside from witch elves/hunters. This will get you away from charge or prevent you from being pounced long enough until your tank or frontline can adjust

[Caduceus]

germ32,

You seem to be talking about non-competitive environments, whereas I was talking about competitive environments. Competitive environments should be, in my opinion, the main driver behind balance changes.

Of course you can adjust your rotation to pick off low-health targets or do damage on the move when zerg surfing in ORvR or in casual SCs.

In 6v6 that's entirely different. If you're not pulling your weight with high damage rotations, there are not going to be any low-health targets to pick off. 2k-3k effective damage on target is just not going to cut it against a strong 6man.

Also the Flee + AP pot combo is a staple in casual play, but in 6v6 it is extremely risky as it consumes your morale leaving you without M2 Focused Mind, which is your only real escape tool.
In other words, if anyone on the opposing team is paying attention and has a Ranged CC (like a RP/Zealot stagger) you will be caught and subsequently subjected to a minute or two of being wailed on, likely resulting in your death.

[wonshot]

An other reason why I think the nerfing should be more direct to what the issue seem to be, is that sorc/Bw who is not critting in both of the ST/aoe situation are doing pretty pittyful dmg. when we dont crit, we are technically a career without a classmechanic.
We are the WL without a pet, but no loner tactic.

So which situations and tools are in the game to make this happen.
Absorbshield, and if im keeping up a range absorbshield was also potentially though about getting implimented on top of this classmechanic nerf.
Players with high CTBC reduction
Shammy/AM Sove granted ability
Slayer/Choppa debuffing our critchance by 100%

On top of that Trival Blows is technically a thing, even if people dont see it as good value. but that is an other direct counter to our class mechanic and crit-only-builds. We do not have alternative builds outside of critting, to which several tools already exsist.
Touching the class mechanic, might "only" be 5% but the main concern is how indirect this adjustment is and how it will affect every aspect of the game from these careers, with no alternatives to make up for the adjustment to push more canon into the class. And that it is happening NOW, when nothing had changed outside of what the balance team has rolled out the last 3-5 changes of indirect changes to how these careers work. Roll back those changes then if they prove to be problematic.

Guard, Absorbshield, taunt, clenses, Challenges, 8piece anticrit, Bellow can all mitigate and stop the timestamp singletarget burst
Hold the Line added to the list in the case of oRvR.