WL parry strikethrough / armor pen /+ dmg.

[Zxul]

With how popular WLs are, wonder if anyone actually looked at a full set of abilities which WL has in an aoe wb spec.

Lets take a 40/40 WL which just entered t4, in mix of say 3 conq with something else, and which joins a wb. Lets look at a baseline aoe spec:

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 02,521,823

The 40/40 WL has:

1. 10% str + 10% 2h + 10% tactic= total 30% parry strikethrough, before any mods on equip. That is enough to nullify parry on anything except dw mdps stacking both parry and init, and to mostly nullify parry on 2h tanks. And unlike slayer, WL doesn't needs to build anything for it, it is always on.
Also, to compare, that is as much as slayer gets with Rampage on, except slayer needs to build the mechanic for Rampage, and Rampage has a limited duration.
2. 25% constant extra armor pen on aoe abilities, including on spammable aoe with no cd.
3. Constant +25% dmg from Loner, and another +25% dmg from Primal Fury available without preparation to use when wb rushes in.
4. Once he gets the axe, also 25% aoe heal debuff proc.
5. And obviously, he also has the procs from party which he spreads with aoe.

Seems a very nice set abilities, which also nicely enough are available on demand without need to build any mechanic.

[Adelmar]

With how popular WLs are, wonder if anyone actually looked at a full set of abilities which WL has in an aoe wb spec.

Lets take a 40/40 WL which just entered t4, in mix of say 3 conq with something else, and which joins a wb. Lets look at a baseline aoe spec:

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 02,521,823

The 40/40 WL has:

1. 10% str + 10% 2h + 10% tactic= total 30% parry strikethrough, before any mods on equip. That is enough to nullify parry on anything except dw mdps stacking both parry and init, and to mostly nullify parry on 2h tanks. And unlike slayer, WL doesn't needs to build anything for it, it is always on.
Also, to compare, that is as much as slayer gets with Rampage on, except slayer needs to build the mechanic for Rampage, and Rampage has a limited duration.
2. 25% constant extra armor pen on aoe abilities, including on spammable aoe with no cd.
3. Constant +25% dmg from Loner, and another +25% dmg from Primal Fury available without preparation to use when wb rushes in.
4. Once he gets the axe, also 25% aoe heal debuff proc.
5. And obviously, he also has the procs from party which he spreads with aoe.

Seems a very nice set abilities, which also nicely enough are available on demand without need to build any mechanic.

TRUE!


Nerf Magus

[what63]

Parry strikethrough on 2h was always an incredibly poor decision.

WL having ARP was pretty much needed.

Primal Fury having conditional removed kinda made sense?

But, Whirling Axe damage was never really set with the general mobility, tactics and the above in mind it feels like. It's like, twice what it should be? I mean the AoE damage of WL was absolutely awful before, but it didn't need nearly that many compounding changes with the huge mobility being at the core. It's kinda the same situation as SW. Do one thing>do another thing>do a third thing, without really bothering to think about how these changes increase the effectiveness of eachother. Suddenly you've ended up with +100% damage, +25% damage on top of that, +25% damage on top of that.......

[Tisaya]

Typical 'an out-of-context list of abilities without mentioning any cons'.

Like if you can just have all the best abilities and tactics without sacrificing anything. Or that 25% damage you get for 10 seconds with 60s cd from Primal Fury, when paired with loner barely scratches the bottom line of the damage loss from missing pet, which is 50-75%, not to mention being the only class in the game with COMPLETE lack of cc while running loner.

[Zxul]

Typical 'an out-of-context list of abilities without mentioning any cons'.

Like if you can just have all the best abilities and tactics without sacrificing anything. Or that 25% damage you get for 10 seconds with 60s cd from Primal Fury, when paired with loner barely scratches the bottom line of the damage loss from missing pet, which is 50-75%, not to mention being the only class in the game with COMPLETE lack of cc while running loner.

Let me repeat- "aoe wb spec".

What do you need the pet or the cc for, while doing aoe as part of a wb?

[Tisaya]

Typical 'an out-of-context list of abilities without mentioning any cons'.

Like if you can just have all the best abilities and tactics without sacrificing anything. Or that 25% damage you get for 10 seconds with 60s cd from Primal Fury, when paired with loner barely scratches the bottom line of the damage loss from missing pet, which is 50-75%, not to mention being the only class in the game with COMPLETE lack of cc while running loner.

Let me repeat- "aoe wb spec".

What do you need the pet or the cc for, while doing aoe as part of a wb?

You should ask yourself, why do you need a significant chunk of damage tied to the existence of the pet while running AOE spec and why do you need CC in a WB and why is mara's aoe knockdown and maras/choppas/magus pull are so important.

[Zxul]

Typical 'an out-of-context list of abilities without mentioning any cons'.

Like if you can just have all the best abilities and tactics without sacrificing anything. Or that 25% damage you get for 10 seconds with 60s cd from Primal Fury, when paired with loner barely scratches the bottom line of the damage loss from missing pet, which is 50-75%, not to mention being the only class in the game with COMPLETE lack of cc while running loner.

Let me repeat- "aoe wb spec".

What do you need the pet or the cc for, while doing aoe as part of a wb?

You should ask yourself, why do you need a significant chunk of damage tied to the existence of the pet while running AOE spec and why do you need CC in a WB and why is mara's aoe knockdown and maras/choppas/magus pull are so important.

1. So are you saying that WL with loner doesn't does enough aoe dmg?
2. Mara has less aoe dmg than WL.
3. Last time I remember anyone asking for magus with pull for wb, was think 7 or so years ago.

[Tisaya]

Loner WL deals 25-50% less damage than WL with a pet. Is it still enough to compete for place in a WB? Idk, I guess it says more about the sad state of other AOE order classes than about WL being strong.

Do you want Mara have as much damage as WL while being tanky, with tons of utility and cc? Don't you think it's a bit unfair?

Pulls are still extremely important, especially in keeps and forts. I've seen countless times how destros just walk into keeps by mindlessly spamming pulls, because the whole tank line is pulled outside and is stuck in the body block.

[Zxul]

Loner WL deals 25-50% less damage than WL with a pet. Is it still enough to compete for place in a WB? Idk, I guess it says more about the sad state of other AOE order classes than about WL being strong.

Do you want Mara have as much damage as WL while being tanky, with tons of utility and cc? Don't you think it's a bit unfair?

Pulls are still extremely important, especially in keeps and forts. I've seen countless times how destros just walk into keeps by mindlessly spamming pulls, because the whole tank line is pulled outside and is stuck in the body block.

1. It is pretty logical that aoe spec will deal less dmg than a st one. Can't actually think of any class where this isn't the case.
2. You were asking about kd on WL, not me.
3. You are likely thinking about choppa pull. And it was nerfed (not 100% remember the exact nerf, and don't have a choppa).

[what63]

Loner WL deals 25-50% less damage than WL with a pet. Is it still enough to compete for place in a WB? Idk, I guess it says more about the sad state of other AOE order classes than about WL being strong.

Do you want Mara have as much damage as WL while being tanky, with tons of utility and cc? Don't you think it's a bit unfair?

Pulls are still extremely important, especially in keeps and forts. I've seen countless times how destros just walk into keeps by mindlessly spamming pulls, because the whole tank line is pulled outside and is stuck in the body block.

Considering WL has been hard meta for ages- yes, it's enough. Not that your premise applies in a warband setting anyways.

The major component that goes away with Loner is crit damage tactic. But Loner is better. Assuming a 1000 damage base hit, with 50% crit and crit damage tactic you would alternate between dealing 1000 and 2000 damage (If we just normalize crit damage to 100% for the sake of ease, of course, in reality the variance would yield a slightly different figure). Loner, also multiplying crit damage, alternates between doing 1250 damage and 1875 damage. Even here it has higher DPS, but this difference grows exponentially as effective crit rate goes down. Of course Loner is additive with Primal Fury so the benefit is less when it is up, but on the whole, it's still very, very, very good in the context in question.