[mSH] Squig Armor question regarding armor debuffs?

[Illuminati]

Hi -

In the past, any armor debuff against mSH in Squig Armor reduced the 'base' armor of the squig, which dramatically impacted the increase from squig form/tactic.

Example:
i.e. simple numbers

1. Squig herder has 2000 base armor (w/ armor pot), 4000 while in Squig Armor (+ stance +tactic, resulting in 100% gain)
2. Squig herder gets hit with a -1600 armor debuff (from White lion).

Is it:

A. Squig herder ends up with 800 amor (2000 base - 1600, = 400 base, +100% from stance/tactic)?
or
B. Squig herder ends up with 2600 armor (2000 base + 100% from stance/tactic) - 1600)?

Thank you. This critical question helps me answer whether or not to main the class for my wb build.

[nocturnalguest]

Last i tested it was reducing base armor (so A). Same for SW stance

[Sinisterror]

if something has 4k armour and in that moment gets debuffed by 1600 it ofc should be 2400 armor left. With 2000 Armour debuffed by 1600 is 800 armour with stance? hmm

[Illuminati]

if something has 4k armour and in that moment gets debuffed by 1600 it ofc should be 2400 armor left. With 2000 Armour debuffed by 1600 is 800 armour with stance? hmm

That's how it should be but what we found (years ago, and I haven't seen any change in patch notes) was that the base armor was reduced, which had a much more negative impact to survivability than a debuff after the bonuses were calculated.

I played around with it for a bit and in my combat log saw Choppa level crappy mitigation on my mSH. I don't want to invest into the class if this is still how it is. Basically, mSH is a slightly weaker form of Choppa if any armor debuff occurs at the base level. I have both a 80+ Choppa and 80+ SH.

Thank you

[leftayparxoun]

The Squig Armor toggle and the Sneaky Bouncin tactic that modifies it, both grant % armor from items.
This, firstly, means that if you had 2000 armor with a 660 pot as you mentioned before, only the part from items (1340) would be boosted.
In that example you would have 1340 x 2 + 660 = 3340 armor, not 4000

Regarding the question itself, I am unsure how it works and the PTS is down so I cannot verify it at the moment.
The wording would imply that the flat armor reduction is applied at the end. The fact that your armor is reduced by X amount does not mean that the armor value of your gear pieces go down. Again, purely based on the wording.
After all, the Squig Armor buff applies to ''armor gained from items'' which is a different stat from ''total armor'' that get's reduced by the armor debuffs.
If that were not the case, then an armor debuff would not be able to remove the armor gained from pots/buffs and therefore you'd always have at least 660 armor.

However, that's all just according to tooltip wordings. In game it might fuction differently (and could even be bugged)

If it's coded like Blackguards Terrifying Foe

then that would mean that the flat armor reduction is applied at the start and the %boost is applied after that reduction.
For an example with the Bg tactic:
You go from 609 TOU to 705 TOU with a Flat +96 buff from Feeding on Weakness (difference = 96)
But with Terrifying Foe up:
You go from 883 TOU (=609*1.45) to 1022 TOU with the same +96 buff (difference = 139 = 96*1.45)

Which is the actual case in game, I will try to arrange for some tests later today and report back.

[Illuminati]

The Squig Armor toggle and the Sneaky Bouncin tactic that modifies it, both grant % armor from items.
This, firstly, means that if you had 2000 armor with a 660 pot as you mentioned before, only the part from items (1340) would be boosted.
In that example you would have 1340 x 2 + 660 = 3340 armor, not 4000

Regarding the question itself, I am unsure how it works and the PTS is down so I cannot verify it at the moment.
The wording would imply that the flat armor reduction is applied at the end. The fact that your armor is reduced by X amount does not mean that the armor value of your gear pieces go down. Again, purely based on the wording.
After all, the Squig Armor buff applies to ''armor gained from items'' which is a different stat from ''total armor'' that get's reduced by the armor debuffs.
If that were not the case, then an armor debuff would not be able to remove the armor gained from pots/buffs and therefore you'd always have at least 660 armor.

However, that's all just according to tooltip wordings. In game it might fuction differently (and could even be bugged)

If it's coded like Blackguards Terrifying Foe

then that would mean that the flat armor reduction is applied at the start and the %boost is applied after that reduction.
For an example with the Bg tactic:
You go from 609 TOU to 705 TOU with a Flat +96 buff from Feeding on Weakness (difference = 96)
But with Terrifying Foe up:
You go from 883 TOU (=609*1.45) to 1022 TOU with the same +96 buff (difference = 139 = 96*1.45)

Which is the actual case in game, I will try to arrange for some tests later today and report back.

Thank you! I used simple numbers in my example so readers/contributors don't mentally check out =p

Would be great to know your results for the meatball community (and ASW folks).

[leftayparxoun]

The Squig Armor toggle and the Sneaky Bouncin tactic that modifies it, both grant % armor from items.
This, firstly, means that if you had 2000 armor with a 660 pot as you mentioned before, only the part from items (1340) would be boosted.
In that example you would have 1340 x 2 + 660 = 3340 armor, not 4000

Regarding the question itself, I am unsure how it works and the PTS is down so I cannot verify it at the moment.
The wording would imply that the flat armor reduction is applied at the end. The fact that your armor is reduced by X amount does not mean that the armor value of your gear pieces go down. Again, purely based on the wording.
After all, the Squig Armor buff applies to ''armor gained from items'' which is a different stat from ''total armor'' that get's reduced by the armor debuffs.
If that were not the case, then an armor debuff would not be able to remove the armor gained from pots/buffs and therefore you'd always have at least 660 armor.

Just tested it:


As expected, the armor debuffs get applied at the end (after the %armor buff has been applied to your armor from gear).
I would assume the same goes for aSW.

[Illuminati]

This is great. Should we be concerned that all armor debuffs operate in this way? Meaning, and I hate to suggest this, but that some classes or set bonus armor debuffs may bypass this order?

I know Morale armor debuff would stack with ability, but is there any known stacking outliers (ability + ability)?

What I could be seeing (from my first example of crappy mitigation) is armor debuff + armor penetration resulting in hits where very little is mitigated.

[leftayparxoun]

This is great. Should we be concerned that all armor debuffs operate in this way? Meaning, and I hate to suggest this, but that some classes or set bonus armor debuffs may bypass this order?

I know Morale armor debuff would stack with ability, but is there any known stacking outliers (ability + ability)?

What I could be seeing (from my first example of crappy mitigation) is armor debuff + armor penetration resulting in hits where very little is mitigated.

Great question.

To my knowledge, all stat buffs/debuffs that have the same operation component work in exactly the same way regardless of if they stack together or not.
In this case, WH's Burn Armor that I used (https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/8091) uses the ArmorChange operation:


If we examine Tzeentch's Talon (https://war-abilityviewer.dalen.io/ability/8605) for example, we also see:


Same for Demolishing Strike (Tank M1):


If you are curious you can check all other Flat armor strips in the game via the database, but I'd bet all of them use the same operation and should therefore apply in the same manner for the MSH/aSW case.

[Illuminati]

Ok, great information.

Last question,

Assuming Armor Penetration occurs after the debuffs? resulting in (example BIS character being near 70% armor pen).

Also, there are armor ignore % abilities, not sure where these occur in the formula (example White Lion Sundering Chop).

Basically, these will all help me answer whether or not I should invest (Annulus rings, etc.) into mSH to build a robust DPS class or if it is better to just stick with Choppa due to most scenarios resulting a mSH with low mitigation.